Is it consistent with NBG that there are two different satisfaction classes that satisfy the Tarski...
How can a demon take control of a human body during REM sleep?
Professor forcing me to attend a conference, I can't afford even with 50% funding
Are all players supposed to be able to see each others' character sheets?
Difference between `nmap local-IP-address` and `nmap localhost`
Writing text next to a table
Can I take the the bonus-action attack from Two-Weapon Fighting without taking the Attack action?
What is this tube in a jet engine's air intake?
Giving a career talk in my old university, how prominently should I tell students my salary?
Under what conditions can the right to remain silent be revoked in the USA?
Gomel chasadim tovim - are there bad chasadim?
Can the Witch Sight warlock invocation see through the Mirror Image spell?
I can't die. Who am I?
How to educate team mate to take screenshots for bugs with out unwanted stuff
Will expression retain the same definition if particle is changed?
How to write a chaotic neutral protagonist and prevent my readers from thinking they are evil?
How do I increase the number of TTY consoles?
Is there a math expression equivalent to the conditional ternary operator?
Has a sovereign Communist government ever run, and conceded loss, on a fair election?
Why do we say 'Pairwise Disjoint', rather than 'Disjoint'?
Why is it common in European airports not to display the gate for flights until around 45-90 minutes before departure, unlike other places?
What does *dead* mean in *What do you mean, dead?*?
Do similar matrices have same characteristic equations?
Why does Central Limit Theorem break down in my simulation?
How is it possible to drive VGA displays at such high pixel clock frequencies?
Is it consistent with NBG that there are two different satisfaction classes that satisfy the Tarski conditions?
Impredicative Comprehension about classes?Problem 24 from Chapter 1 of Kunen's Set Theory: An Introduction to Independence ProofsAre there classes with different sizes?Can the consistency of ZF be proved in MK?No proposition $chi$ such that $mathscr{M}modelschiiffmathscr{M}$ is infiniteProve or disprove that for theory $T$, $T vdash (phi rightarrow psi) iff T cup {phi} vdash psi$.First Order Logic Consequence RelationInfinite Spectrum Problem$X+negtext{Con}(X)$ for finitely axiomatizable theoriesIf two classes of models are disjoint then there exists a pair of sentences that aren't satisfiable.
$begingroup$
So, NBG can not prove that first order set theory has a satisfication class. However, it is consistent with NBG that such a class exists. My question is if it is consistent with NBG that two such classes exist.
We will use $in, =, lor, exists, lnot,$ as the main symbols in our language for first order set theory. We say that a class $S$ is a satisfaction class if $(s,v) in S$ iff $s$ is a formula, $v$ is a function from variables to sets, and one of the following is true (for some variables $x$ and $y$ and formulas $phi, psi$):
- s = $x$ "$in$" $y$ and $v(x) in v(y)$
- s = $x$ "$=$" y and $v(x) = v(y)$
- s = $phi$ "$lor$" $psi$ and either $(phi, v) in S$ or $(psi, v) in S$
- s = "$exists$" $x$ $phi$ and there exists some set $chi$ such that ($phi$, $v'$), where $v'$ is $v$ with $x$ assigned to $chi$
- s = "$lnot$" $phi$ and $(phi, v) notin S$
Is the statement "There exists proper classes $S$ and $S'$ such that $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes and $S neq S'$" consistent with NBG?
One thing to note is that for any statement $phi$ we have that $(phi, emptyset) in S iff (phi, emptyset) in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory. However, I can not find anything wrong with $S$ and $S'$ disagreeing on other elements, such as ones where the variable assignment is non-empty, or where $phi$ has a nonstandard length (assuming we are talking about a model, and that model has nonstandard naturals).
logic set-theory model-theory satisfiability
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So, NBG can not prove that first order set theory has a satisfication class. However, it is consistent with NBG that such a class exists. My question is if it is consistent with NBG that two such classes exist.
We will use $in, =, lor, exists, lnot,$ as the main symbols in our language for first order set theory. We say that a class $S$ is a satisfaction class if $(s,v) in S$ iff $s$ is a formula, $v$ is a function from variables to sets, and one of the following is true (for some variables $x$ and $y$ and formulas $phi, psi$):
- s = $x$ "$in$" $y$ and $v(x) in v(y)$
- s = $x$ "$=$" y and $v(x) = v(y)$
- s = $phi$ "$lor$" $psi$ and either $(phi, v) in S$ or $(psi, v) in S$
- s = "$exists$" $x$ $phi$ and there exists some set $chi$ such that ($phi$, $v'$), where $v'$ is $v$ with $x$ assigned to $chi$
- s = "$lnot$" $phi$ and $(phi, v) notin S$
Is the statement "There exists proper classes $S$ and $S'$ such that $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes and $S neq S'$" consistent with NBG?
One thing to note is that for any statement $phi$ we have that $(phi, emptyset) in S iff (phi, emptyset) in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory. However, I can not find anything wrong with $S$ and $S'$ disagreeing on other elements, such as ones where the variable assignment is non-empty, or where $phi$ has a nonstandard length (assuming we are talking about a model, and that model has nonstandard naturals).
logic set-theory model-theory satisfiability
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So, NBG can not prove that first order set theory has a satisfication class. However, it is consistent with NBG that such a class exists. My question is if it is consistent with NBG that two such classes exist.
We will use $in, =, lor, exists, lnot,$ as the main symbols in our language for first order set theory. We say that a class $S$ is a satisfaction class if $(s,v) in S$ iff $s$ is a formula, $v$ is a function from variables to sets, and one of the following is true (for some variables $x$ and $y$ and formulas $phi, psi$):
- s = $x$ "$in$" $y$ and $v(x) in v(y)$
- s = $x$ "$=$" y and $v(x) = v(y)$
- s = $phi$ "$lor$" $psi$ and either $(phi, v) in S$ or $(psi, v) in S$
- s = "$exists$" $x$ $phi$ and there exists some set $chi$ such that ($phi$, $v'$), where $v'$ is $v$ with $x$ assigned to $chi$
- s = "$lnot$" $phi$ and $(phi, v) notin S$
Is the statement "There exists proper classes $S$ and $S'$ such that $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes and $S neq S'$" consistent with NBG?
One thing to note is that for any statement $phi$ we have that $(phi, emptyset) in S iff (phi, emptyset) in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory. However, I can not find anything wrong with $S$ and $S'$ disagreeing on other elements, such as ones where the variable assignment is non-empty, or where $phi$ has a nonstandard length (assuming we are talking about a model, and that model has nonstandard naturals).
logic set-theory model-theory satisfiability
$endgroup$
So, NBG can not prove that first order set theory has a satisfication class. However, it is consistent with NBG that such a class exists. My question is if it is consistent with NBG that two such classes exist.
We will use $in, =, lor, exists, lnot,$ as the main symbols in our language for first order set theory. We say that a class $S$ is a satisfaction class if $(s,v) in S$ iff $s$ is a formula, $v$ is a function from variables to sets, and one of the following is true (for some variables $x$ and $y$ and formulas $phi, psi$):
- s = $x$ "$in$" $y$ and $v(x) in v(y)$
- s = $x$ "$=$" y and $v(x) = v(y)$
- s = $phi$ "$lor$" $psi$ and either $(phi, v) in S$ or $(psi, v) in S$
- s = "$exists$" $x$ $phi$ and there exists some set $chi$ such that ($phi$, $v'$), where $v'$ is $v$ with $x$ assigned to $chi$
- s = "$lnot$" $phi$ and $(phi, v) notin S$
Is the statement "There exists proper classes $S$ and $S'$ such that $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes and $S neq S'$" consistent with NBG?
One thing to note is that for any statement $phi$ we have that $(phi, emptyset) in S iff (phi, emptyset) in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory. However, I can not find anything wrong with $S$ and $S'$ disagreeing on other elements, such as ones where the variable assignment is non-empty, or where $phi$ has a nonstandard length (assuming we are talking about a model, and that model has nonstandard naturals).
logic set-theory model-theory satisfiability
logic set-theory model-theory satisfiability
edited yesterday
bof
52.4k558121
52.4k558121
asked yesterday
PyRulezPyRulez
4,98122471
4,98122471
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
NBG can prove the following theorem by straightforward induction on the structure of $varphi$: Suppose $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes. Then for all formulas $varphi$, we have that for all variable assignments $v$, $(varphi,v)in Siff (varphi,v)in S'$. It follows that $S = S'$.
Edit: As Andreas Blass points out, this is not quite as straightforward as I made it sound. Let me try to spell it out more explicitly. NBG defines a set $mathcal{F}$ of formulas in the language of NBG, together with a relation $<$ on $mathcal{F}$, where $varphi<psi$ iff $varphi$ is a proper subformula of $psi$. NBG proves that $(mathcal{F},<)$ is a well-founded poset, and hence can carry out induction on $(mathcal{F},<)$: for any set $Xsubseteq mathcal{F}$, if $psiin X$ whenever $varphiin X$ for all $varphi < psi$, then $X = mathcal{F}$.
Now NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, by class comprehension using $S$ and $S'$ are parameters, we have a class $X = {varphiin mathcal{F}mid (forall v, (varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S')}$. Note that the comprehension condition only quantifies over sets, not classes, since a function from variables to sets is a set. Of course, $X$ is a set, since it's a subset of $mathcal{F}$.
Finally, NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, if $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes, then $X$ satisfies the induction criterion, so $X = mathcal{F}$. That is, $forall varphiin mathcal{F} forall v ((varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'))$, i.e. $S = S'$.
You write:
One thing to note is that for any statement $varphi$, we have that $(varphi,emptyset)in S iff (varphi,emptyset)in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory.
For one thing, I'm not sure what induction you have in mind that will only apply to sentences with no free variables. If $varphi$ is $exists x, psi$, then in order to use the definition of $(exists x, psi,emptyset)in S$, you're going to have to think about elements $(psi,v)in S$ where $v$ is nonempty!
But more importantly, there's absolutely no reason to do induction in the meta-theory here. The set of first-order formulas has an inductive structure, and NBG proves that the induction principle over the set of formulas is valid. The fact that there are models of NBG containing formulas of non-standard length is irrelevant, just like the fact that there are non-standard models of PA doesn't stop us from doing proofs by induction in PA. I think this is the crux of the confusion in your question.
Edit: One more comment. You could imagine that in some model of NBG with formulas of nonstandard length, there are two satisfaction classes $S$ and $S'$ which agree on all the formulas of standard length, but start disagreeing afterward. What the proof above shows is that in this situation, we could use $S$ and $S'$ to find a subset of $mathcal{F}$ with no minimal element. And since NBG proves that $mathcal{F}$ is well-founded, such a set cannot exist in any model of NBG (even in a model in which we can see externally that $mathcal{F}$ is not well-founded).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3139911%2fis-it-consistent-with-nbg-that-there-are-two-different-satisfaction-classes-that%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
NBG can prove the following theorem by straightforward induction on the structure of $varphi$: Suppose $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes. Then for all formulas $varphi$, we have that for all variable assignments $v$, $(varphi,v)in Siff (varphi,v)in S'$. It follows that $S = S'$.
Edit: As Andreas Blass points out, this is not quite as straightforward as I made it sound. Let me try to spell it out more explicitly. NBG defines a set $mathcal{F}$ of formulas in the language of NBG, together with a relation $<$ on $mathcal{F}$, where $varphi<psi$ iff $varphi$ is a proper subformula of $psi$. NBG proves that $(mathcal{F},<)$ is a well-founded poset, and hence can carry out induction on $(mathcal{F},<)$: for any set $Xsubseteq mathcal{F}$, if $psiin X$ whenever $varphiin X$ for all $varphi < psi$, then $X = mathcal{F}$.
Now NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, by class comprehension using $S$ and $S'$ are parameters, we have a class $X = {varphiin mathcal{F}mid (forall v, (varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S')}$. Note that the comprehension condition only quantifies over sets, not classes, since a function from variables to sets is a set. Of course, $X$ is a set, since it's a subset of $mathcal{F}$.
Finally, NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, if $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes, then $X$ satisfies the induction criterion, so $X = mathcal{F}$. That is, $forall varphiin mathcal{F} forall v ((varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'))$, i.e. $S = S'$.
You write:
One thing to note is that for any statement $varphi$, we have that $(varphi,emptyset)in S iff (varphi,emptyset)in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory.
For one thing, I'm not sure what induction you have in mind that will only apply to sentences with no free variables. If $varphi$ is $exists x, psi$, then in order to use the definition of $(exists x, psi,emptyset)in S$, you're going to have to think about elements $(psi,v)in S$ where $v$ is nonempty!
But more importantly, there's absolutely no reason to do induction in the meta-theory here. The set of first-order formulas has an inductive structure, and NBG proves that the induction principle over the set of formulas is valid. The fact that there are models of NBG containing formulas of non-standard length is irrelevant, just like the fact that there are non-standard models of PA doesn't stop us from doing proofs by induction in PA. I think this is the crux of the confusion in your question.
Edit: One more comment. You could imagine that in some model of NBG with formulas of nonstandard length, there are two satisfaction classes $S$ and $S'$ which agree on all the formulas of standard length, but start disagreeing afterward. What the proof above shows is that in this situation, we could use $S$ and $S'$ to find a subset of $mathcal{F}$ with no minimal element. And since NBG proves that $mathcal{F}$ is well-founded, such a set cannot exist in any model of NBG (even in a model in which we can see externally that $mathcal{F}$ is not well-founded).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
NBG can prove the following theorem by straightforward induction on the structure of $varphi$: Suppose $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes. Then for all formulas $varphi$, we have that for all variable assignments $v$, $(varphi,v)in Siff (varphi,v)in S'$. It follows that $S = S'$.
Edit: As Andreas Blass points out, this is not quite as straightforward as I made it sound. Let me try to spell it out more explicitly. NBG defines a set $mathcal{F}$ of formulas in the language of NBG, together with a relation $<$ on $mathcal{F}$, where $varphi<psi$ iff $varphi$ is a proper subformula of $psi$. NBG proves that $(mathcal{F},<)$ is a well-founded poset, and hence can carry out induction on $(mathcal{F},<)$: for any set $Xsubseteq mathcal{F}$, if $psiin X$ whenever $varphiin X$ for all $varphi < psi$, then $X = mathcal{F}$.
Now NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, by class comprehension using $S$ and $S'$ are parameters, we have a class $X = {varphiin mathcal{F}mid (forall v, (varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S')}$. Note that the comprehension condition only quantifies over sets, not classes, since a function from variables to sets is a set. Of course, $X$ is a set, since it's a subset of $mathcal{F}$.
Finally, NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, if $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes, then $X$ satisfies the induction criterion, so $X = mathcal{F}$. That is, $forall varphiin mathcal{F} forall v ((varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'))$, i.e. $S = S'$.
You write:
One thing to note is that for any statement $varphi$, we have that $(varphi,emptyset)in S iff (varphi,emptyset)in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory.
For one thing, I'm not sure what induction you have in mind that will only apply to sentences with no free variables. If $varphi$ is $exists x, psi$, then in order to use the definition of $(exists x, psi,emptyset)in S$, you're going to have to think about elements $(psi,v)in S$ where $v$ is nonempty!
But more importantly, there's absolutely no reason to do induction in the meta-theory here. The set of first-order formulas has an inductive structure, and NBG proves that the induction principle over the set of formulas is valid. The fact that there are models of NBG containing formulas of non-standard length is irrelevant, just like the fact that there are non-standard models of PA doesn't stop us from doing proofs by induction in PA. I think this is the crux of the confusion in your question.
Edit: One more comment. You could imagine that in some model of NBG with formulas of nonstandard length, there are two satisfaction classes $S$ and $S'$ which agree on all the formulas of standard length, but start disagreeing afterward. What the proof above shows is that in this situation, we could use $S$ and $S'$ to find a subset of $mathcal{F}$ with no minimal element. And since NBG proves that $mathcal{F}$ is well-founded, such a set cannot exist in any model of NBG (even in a model in which we can see externally that $mathcal{F}$ is not well-founded).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
NBG can prove the following theorem by straightforward induction on the structure of $varphi$: Suppose $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes. Then for all formulas $varphi$, we have that for all variable assignments $v$, $(varphi,v)in Siff (varphi,v)in S'$. It follows that $S = S'$.
Edit: As Andreas Blass points out, this is not quite as straightforward as I made it sound. Let me try to spell it out more explicitly. NBG defines a set $mathcal{F}$ of formulas in the language of NBG, together with a relation $<$ on $mathcal{F}$, where $varphi<psi$ iff $varphi$ is a proper subformula of $psi$. NBG proves that $(mathcal{F},<)$ is a well-founded poset, and hence can carry out induction on $(mathcal{F},<)$: for any set $Xsubseteq mathcal{F}$, if $psiin X$ whenever $varphiin X$ for all $varphi < psi$, then $X = mathcal{F}$.
Now NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, by class comprehension using $S$ and $S'$ are parameters, we have a class $X = {varphiin mathcal{F}mid (forall v, (varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S')}$. Note that the comprehension condition only quantifies over sets, not classes, since a function from variables to sets is a set. Of course, $X$ is a set, since it's a subset of $mathcal{F}$.
Finally, NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, if $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes, then $X$ satisfies the induction criterion, so $X = mathcal{F}$. That is, $forall varphiin mathcal{F} forall v ((varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'))$, i.e. $S = S'$.
You write:
One thing to note is that for any statement $varphi$, we have that $(varphi,emptyset)in S iff (varphi,emptyset)in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory.
For one thing, I'm not sure what induction you have in mind that will only apply to sentences with no free variables. If $varphi$ is $exists x, psi$, then in order to use the definition of $(exists x, psi,emptyset)in S$, you're going to have to think about elements $(psi,v)in S$ where $v$ is nonempty!
But more importantly, there's absolutely no reason to do induction in the meta-theory here. The set of first-order formulas has an inductive structure, and NBG proves that the induction principle over the set of formulas is valid. The fact that there are models of NBG containing formulas of non-standard length is irrelevant, just like the fact that there are non-standard models of PA doesn't stop us from doing proofs by induction in PA. I think this is the crux of the confusion in your question.
Edit: One more comment. You could imagine that in some model of NBG with formulas of nonstandard length, there are two satisfaction classes $S$ and $S'$ which agree on all the formulas of standard length, but start disagreeing afterward. What the proof above shows is that in this situation, we could use $S$ and $S'$ to find a subset of $mathcal{F}$ with no minimal element. And since NBG proves that $mathcal{F}$ is well-founded, such a set cannot exist in any model of NBG (even in a model in which we can see externally that $mathcal{F}$ is not well-founded).
$endgroup$
NBG can prove the following theorem by straightforward induction on the structure of $varphi$: Suppose $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes. Then for all formulas $varphi$, we have that for all variable assignments $v$, $(varphi,v)in Siff (varphi,v)in S'$. It follows that $S = S'$.
Edit: As Andreas Blass points out, this is not quite as straightforward as I made it sound. Let me try to spell it out more explicitly. NBG defines a set $mathcal{F}$ of formulas in the language of NBG, together with a relation $<$ on $mathcal{F}$, where $varphi<psi$ iff $varphi$ is a proper subformula of $psi$. NBG proves that $(mathcal{F},<)$ is a well-founded poset, and hence can carry out induction on $(mathcal{F},<)$: for any set $Xsubseteq mathcal{F}$, if $psiin X$ whenever $varphiin X$ for all $varphi < psi$, then $X = mathcal{F}$.
Now NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, by class comprehension using $S$ and $S'$ are parameters, we have a class $X = {varphiin mathcal{F}mid (forall v, (varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S')}$. Note that the comprehension condition only quantifies over sets, not classes, since a function from variables to sets is a set. Of course, $X$ is a set, since it's a subset of $mathcal{F}$.
Finally, NBG proves that for all classes $S$ and $S'$, if $S$ and $S'$ are satisfaction classes, then $X$ satisfies the induction criterion, so $X = mathcal{F}$. That is, $forall varphiin mathcal{F} forall v ((varphi,v)in Sleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'))$, i.e. $S = S'$.
You write:
One thing to note is that for any statement $varphi$, we have that $(varphi,emptyset)in S iff (varphi,emptyset)in S'$. We can prove that there is a proof of this by using induction on formula length in the meta-theory.
For one thing, I'm not sure what induction you have in mind that will only apply to sentences with no free variables. If $varphi$ is $exists x, psi$, then in order to use the definition of $(exists x, psi,emptyset)in S$, you're going to have to think about elements $(psi,v)in S$ where $v$ is nonempty!
But more importantly, there's absolutely no reason to do induction in the meta-theory here. The set of first-order formulas has an inductive structure, and NBG proves that the induction principle over the set of formulas is valid. The fact that there are models of NBG containing formulas of non-standard length is irrelevant, just like the fact that there are non-standard models of PA doesn't stop us from doing proofs by induction in PA. I think this is the crux of the confusion in your question.
Edit: One more comment. You could imagine that in some model of NBG with formulas of nonstandard length, there are two satisfaction classes $S$ and $S'$ which agree on all the formulas of standard length, but start disagreeing afterward. What the proof above shows is that in this situation, we could use $S$ and $S'$ to find a subset of $mathcal{F}$ with no minimal element. And since NBG proves that $mathcal{F}$ is well-founded, such a set cannot exist in any model of NBG (even in a model in which we can see externally that $mathcal{F}$ is not well-founded).
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Alex KruckmanAlex Kruckman
27.7k32658
27.7k32658
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
Is it assumed that $S$ and $S'$ are definable without quantifying over proper classes? Or is NBG being extended by adding comprehension axioms for formulas involving (predicate symbols for ) $S$ and $S'$? Without something like that, I don't see how to do the induction. (This is similar to the fact that ordinary induction for natural numbers won't work in NBG if the statement to be proved by induction involves quantification over proper classes.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Oh, yikes, I guess I didn't think about this carefully enough. What's an example of the kind of failure of induction of induction over $omega$ you're referring to?
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
Using quantification over proper classes, you can formulate in NBG a definition of "truth in the universe" (for formulas of ZFC). It's the same definition as in MK, since NBG and MK have the same language. But, unlike MK, NBG can't carry out the induction showing that everything provable in ZFC is true, and so NBG can't formalize the natural proof that ZFC is consistent (which is a good thing, since NBG (including set-choice) is a conservative extension of ZFC).
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass Ok, I think I understand the issue now. But it seems to me that the induction in my answer isn't actually quantifying over classes, just using the classes $S$ and $S'$ as parameters - and I was under the impression that this was covered by the class existence axioms in NBG. More precisely, doesn't NBG prove that for all $S$ and $S'$, there exists a class consisting of all formulas $varphi$ such that there exists a $v$ such that $(varphi,v)in Snotleftrightarrow (varphi,v)in S'$? If not, then there's a subtlety about class existence in NBG that I've misunderstood.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
$begingroup$
I think you're right. If $S$ and $S'$ are classes (not just predicates), then NBG gives you the comprehension and therefore the induction that you need.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
yesterday
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3139911%2fis-it-consistent-with-nbg-that-there-are-two-different-satisfaction-classes-that%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown