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Specific choice of rules of inference for predicate calculus



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Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Predicate calculus is not scapegoat theory ?!Unable to prove this simple inference using sequent calculusDecidability of predicate calculus with equality onlyPredicate free variable property inferenceSolving truth value of predicate calculus statements(Just the approach)History of the predicate calculusRules of predicate calculus logicNecessity of universal quantifier in predicate calculusProving $exists ! x (t = x)$ constructively without double negation axiomConvincing yourself about choice of axioms for predicate calculus












2












$begingroup$


In Kleene's "Mathematical Logic" and "Introduction to Metamathematics" for a classical predicate calculus the following two rules of inference are chosen.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(exists xA(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and
if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (forall xA(x))$ where $C$ does not contain variable $x$ free.



I tried motivating these choices but unfortunately I could not. Because it is a classical predicate calculus I tried considering truth table semantics to somehow see why these results should be valid, but what I found (not sure if correct) is that the following results are semantically valid as well.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x(A(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and also if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (exists x A(x))$ where $C$ again does not contain variable $x$ free.



If this is indeed true then I am confused as one sees that $exists$ and $forall$ act in inference rules in exactly the same way while intuitively I would think that these two logical symbols should act differently.



I would appreciate your advice or thoughts about this.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid. It is expected that you would conclude wrong results like "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". Also, there's plenty of material here on this question. You can search it.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 18:55












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala what do you mean using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid? I agree that it is not philosophically satisfying but invalid? Consider domain consisting of a finite amount of objects. Then certainly you can use truth tables because it is just a mechanical algorithm
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:05










  • $begingroup$
    To semantically justify a formula in propositional logic, you can use truth tables. But to semantically justify a formula in predicate logic you must find a model which consists of a) a universe of objects, from which the variables $x$ take values, and b) a correspondence between the logic connectives and operations over your universe.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 19:09












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala take finite universe of objects where there are at least two objects. Can you help me please in that case?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12












  • $begingroup$
    @AlexKruckman if you accept that other two rules of inference are also semantically valid then $forall$ and $exists$ act in exactly the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12


















2












$begingroup$


In Kleene's "Mathematical Logic" and "Introduction to Metamathematics" for a classical predicate calculus the following two rules of inference are chosen.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(exists xA(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and
if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (forall xA(x))$ where $C$ does not contain variable $x$ free.



I tried motivating these choices but unfortunately I could not. Because it is a classical predicate calculus I tried considering truth table semantics to somehow see why these results should be valid, but what I found (not sure if correct) is that the following results are semantically valid as well.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x(A(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and also if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (exists x A(x))$ where $C$ again does not contain variable $x$ free.



If this is indeed true then I am confused as one sees that $exists$ and $forall$ act in inference rules in exactly the same way while intuitively I would think that these two logical symbols should act differently.



I would appreciate your advice or thoughts about this.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid. It is expected that you would conclude wrong results like "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". Also, there's plenty of material here on this question. You can search it.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 18:55












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala what do you mean using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid? I agree that it is not philosophically satisfying but invalid? Consider domain consisting of a finite amount of objects. Then certainly you can use truth tables because it is just a mechanical algorithm
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:05










  • $begingroup$
    To semantically justify a formula in propositional logic, you can use truth tables. But to semantically justify a formula in predicate logic you must find a model which consists of a) a universe of objects, from which the variables $x$ take values, and b) a correspondence between the logic connectives and operations over your universe.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 19:09












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala take finite universe of objects where there are at least two objects. Can you help me please in that case?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12












  • $begingroup$
    @AlexKruckman if you accept that other two rules of inference are also semantically valid then $forall$ and $exists$ act in exactly the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12
















2












2








2





$begingroup$


In Kleene's "Mathematical Logic" and "Introduction to Metamathematics" for a classical predicate calculus the following two rules of inference are chosen.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(exists xA(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and
if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (forall xA(x))$ where $C$ does not contain variable $x$ free.



I tried motivating these choices but unfortunately I could not. Because it is a classical predicate calculus I tried considering truth table semantics to somehow see why these results should be valid, but what I found (not sure if correct) is that the following results are semantically valid as well.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x(A(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and also if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (exists x A(x))$ where $C$ again does not contain variable $x$ free.



If this is indeed true then I am confused as one sees that $exists$ and $forall$ act in inference rules in exactly the same way while intuitively I would think that these two logical symbols should act differently.



I would appreciate your advice or thoughts about this.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




In Kleene's "Mathematical Logic" and "Introduction to Metamathematics" for a classical predicate calculus the following two rules of inference are chosen.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(exists xA(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and
if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (forall xA(x))$ where $C$ does not contain variable $x$ free.



I tried motivating these choices but unfortunately I could not. Because it is a classical predicate calculus I tried considering truth table semantics to somehow see why these results should be valid, but what I found (not sure if correct) is that the following results are semantically valid as well.



If $A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x(A(x)) Rightarrow (C)$ and also if $C Rightarrow A(x)$ then $(C) Rightarrow (exists x A(x))$ where $C$ again does not contain variable $x$ free.



If this is indeed true then I am confused as one sees that $exists$ and $forall$ act in inference rules in exactly the same way while intuitively I would think that these two logical symbols should act differently.



I would appreciate your advice or thoughts about this.







logic predicate-logic






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Mar 25 at 16:53









Daniels KrimansDaniels Krimans

257311




257311












  • $begingroup$
    Using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid. It is expected that you would conclude wrong results like "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". Also, there's plenty of material here on this question. You can search it.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 18:55












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala what do you mean using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid? I agree that it is not philosophically satisfying but invalid? Consider domain consisting of a finite amount of objects. Then certainly you can use truth tables because it is just a mechanical algorithm
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:05










  • $begingroup$
    To semantically justify a formula in propositional logic, you can use truth tables. But to semantically justify a formula in predicate logic you must find a model which consists of a) a universe of objects, from which the variables $x$ take values, and b) a correspondence between the logic connectives and operations over your universe.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 19:09












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala take finite universe of objects where there are at least two objects. Can you help me please in that case?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12












  • $begingroup$
    @AlexKruckman if you accept that other two rules of inference are also semantically valid then $forall$ and $exists$ act in exactly the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12




















  • $begingroup$
    Using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid. It is expected that you would conclude wrong results like "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". Also, there's plenty of material here on this question. You can search it.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 18:55












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala what do you mean using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid? I agree that it is not philosophically satisfying but invalid? Consider domain consisting of a finite amount of objects. Then certainly you can use truth tables because it is just a mechanical algorithm
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:05










  • $begingroup$
    To semantically justify a formula in propositional logic, you can use truth tables. But to semantically justify a formula in predicate logic you must find a model which consists of a) a universe of objects, from which the variables $x$ take values, and b) a correspondence between the logic connectives and operations over your universe.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 25 at 19:09












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala take finite universe of objects where there are at least two objects. Can you help me please in that case?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12












  • $begingroup$
    @AlexKruckman if you accept that other two rules of inference are also semantically valid then $forall$ and $exists$ act in exactly the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 19:12


















$begingroup$
Using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid. It is expected that you would conclude wrong results like "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". Also, there's plenty of material here on this question. You can search it.
$endgroup$
– frabala
Mar 25 at 18:55






$begingroup$
Using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid. It is expected that you would conclude wrong results like "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". Also, there's plenty of material here on this question. You can search it.
$endgroup$
– frabala
Mar 25 at 18:55














$begingroup$
@frabala what do you mean using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid? I agree that it is not philosophically satisfying but invalid? Consider domain consisting of a finite amount of objects. Then certainly you can use truth tables because it is just a mechanical algorithm
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 19:05




$begingroup$
@frabala what do you mean using truth tables on first-order logic formulas is invalid? I agree that it is not philosophically satisfying but invalid? Consider domain consisting of a finite amount of objects. Then certainly you can use truth tables because it is just a mechanical algorithm
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 19:05












$begingroup$
To semantically justify a formula in propositional logic, you can use truth tables. But to semantically justify a formula in predicate logic you must find a model which consists of a) a universe of objects, from which the variables $x$ take values, and b) a correspondence between the logic connectives and operations over your universe.
$endgroup$
– frabala
Mar 25 at 19:09






$begingroup$
To semantically justify a formula in propositional logic, you can use truth tables. But to semantically justify a formula in predicate logic you must find a model which consists of a) a universe of objects, from which the variables $x$ take values, and b) a correspondence between the logic connectives and operations over your universe.
$endgroup$
– frabala
Mar 25 at 19:09














$begingroup$
@frabala take finite universe of objects where there are at least two objects. Can you help me please in that case?
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 19:12






$begingroup$
@frabala take finite universe of objects where there are at least two objects. Can you help me please in that case?
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 19:12














$begingroup$
@AlexKruckman if you accept that other two rules of inference are also semantically valid then $forall$ and $exists$ act in exactly the same way.
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 19:12






$begingroup$
@AlexKruckman if you accept that other two rules of inference are also semantically valid then $forall$ and $exists$ act in exactly the same way.
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 19:12












2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

The additional rules you give are indeed valid (on non-empty domains). The reason for this is that the implication $forall x, A(x) Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ is valid (on non-empty domains) - if I recall correctly, this is sometimes called "existential import".



So if $A(x) Rightarrow C$, then we have both $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, so $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow C$.



And dually, if $CRightarrow A(x)$, then we have both $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$, so $CRightarrow exists x, A(x)$.



But we don't get from this that $exists$ and $forall$ "act in exactly the same way", because the rules you've given in your question don't totally capture the meaning of $exists$ and $forall$. You need more rules.



I'm not sure what rules Kleene uses, but there are two common approaches:




  1. One approach is to also give the converses of your rules: If $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, then $A(x)Rightarrow C$, and if $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$, then $CRightarrow A(x)$ (where $x$ is not free in $C$).


  2. Another approach is to include the axioms $A(t)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow A(t)$, where $t$ is a term substitutable for $x$.



In either of these approaches, you'll notice that if you try to replace $exists$ by $forall$ or vice versa, the rules are obviously not sound.





One more comment: The classical approach to first-order logic assumes that every structure has non-empty domain. But this assumption is not universal. If our semantics for first-order logic allows empty domains, then existential import fails: If there are no $x$s, then $forall x, A(x)$ is vacuously true, while $exists x, A(x)$ is false.



And similarly, if we allow empty domains, then your versions of the rules where we swap $exists$ and $forall$ are no longer valid. Frabala's answer gives a very nice intuitive example of this.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:55






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 22:05



















3












$begingroup$

An intuitive answer, in a world of match sticks and fire and no magic, i.e. one can not make fire out of nothing.



Consider a variable $x$ to mean a match stick. Let $A(x)$ mean "Stick $x$ smokes" and $C$ mean "There is fire".



The rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(exists x A(x))Rightarrow C$" states the very obvious: "if stick x smokes then there's fire" means "if there is some stick $x$ that smokes, then there's fire". This sentence holds in any universe of match sticks.



Now, consider your rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". It states the following: "if stick x smokes, then there's fire" means also that "if all sticks $x$ are smoking, then there's fire". This derivation is valid only in models that contain at least one object. Because in an empty universe that has no match sticks, all match sticks (which are actually none) are smoking. However, there can be no fire without match sticks!






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 19:52










  • $begingroup$
    @frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 28 at 0:26












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 29 at 20:05












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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

The additional rules you give are indeed valid (on non-empty domains). The reason for this is that the implication $forall x, A(x) Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ is valid (on non-empty domains) - if I recall correctly, this is sometimes called "existential import".



So if $A(x) Rightarrow C$, then we have both $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, so $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow C$.



And dually, if $CRightarrow A(x)$, then we have both $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$, so $CRightarrow exists x, A(x)$.



But we don't get from this that $exists$ and $forall$ "act in exactly the same way", because the rules you've given in your question don't totally capture the meaning of $exists$ and $forall$. You need more rules.



I'm not sure what rules Kleene uses, but there are two common approaches:




  1. One approach is to also give the converses of your rules: If $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, then $A(x)Rightarrow C$, and if $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$, then $CRightarrow A(x)$ (where $x$ is not free in $C$).


  2. Another approach is to include the axioms $A(t)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow A(t)$, where $t$ is a term substitutable for $x$.



In either of these approaches, you'll notice that if you try to replace $exists$ by $forall$ or vice versa, the rules are obviously not sound.





One more comment: The classical approach to first-order logic assumes that every structure has non-empty domain. But this assumption is not universal. If our semantics for first-order logic allows empty domains, then existential import fails: If there are no $x$s, then $forall x, A(x)$ is vacuously true, while $exists x, A(x)$ is false.



And similarly, if we allow empty domains, then your versions of the rules where we swap $exists$ and $forall$ are no longer valid. Frabala's answer gives a very nice intuitive example of this.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:55






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 22:05
















2












$begingroup$

The additional rules you give are indeed valid (on non-empty domains). The reason for this is that the implication $forall x, A(x) Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ is valid (on non-empty domains) - if I recall correctly, this is sometimes called "existential import".



So if $A(x) Rightarrow C$, then we have both $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, so $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow C$.



And dually, if $CRightarrow A(x)$, then we have both $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$, so $CRightarrow exists x, A(x)$.



But we don't get from this that $exists$ and $forall$ "act in exactly the same way", because the rules you've given in your question don't totally capture the meaning of $exists$ and $forall$. You need more rules.



I'm not sure what rules Kleene uses, but there are two common approaches:




  1. One approach is to also give the converses of your rules: If $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, then $A(x)Rightarrow C$, and if $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$, then $CRightarrow A(x)$ (where $x$ is not free in $C$).


  2. Another approach is to include the axioms $A(t)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow A(t)$, where $t$ is a term substitutable for $x$.



In either of these approaches, you'll notice that if you try to replace $exists$ by $forall$ or vice versa, the rules are obviously not sound.





One more comment: The classical approach to first-order logic assumes that every structure has non-empty domain. But this assumption is not universal. If our semantics for first-order logic allows empty domains, then existential import fails: If there are no $x$s, then $forall x, A(x)$ is vacuously true, while $exists x, A(x)$ is false.



And similarly, if we allow empty domains, then your versions of the rules where we swap $exists$ and $forall$ are no longer valid. Frabala's answer gives a very nice intuitive example of this.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:55






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 22:05














2












2








2





$begingroup$

The additional rules you give are indeed valid (on non-empty domains). The reason for this is that the implication $forall x, A(x) Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ is valid (on non-empty domains) - if I recall correctly, this is sometimes called "existential import".



So if $A(x) Rightarrow C$, then we have both $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, so $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow C$.



And dually, if $CRightarrow A(x)$, then we have both $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$, so $CRightarrow exists x, A(x)$.



But we don't get from this that $exists$ and $forall$ "act in exactly the same way", because the rules you've given in your question don't totally capture the meaning of $exists$ and $forall$. You need more rules.



I'm not sure what rules Kleene uses, but there are two common approaches:




  1. One approach is to also give the converses of your rules: If $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, then $A(x)Rightarrow C$, and if $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$, then $CRightarrow A(x)$ (where $x$ is not free in $C$).


  2. Another approach is to include the axioms $A(t)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow A(t)$, where $t$ is a term substitutable for $x$.



In either of these approaches, you'll notice that if you try to replace $exists$ by $forall$ or vice versa, the rules are obviously not sound.





One more comment: The classical approach to first-order logic assumes that every structure has non-empty domain. But this assumption is not universal. If our semantics for first-order logic allows empty domains, then existential import fails: If there are no $x$s, then $forall x, A(x)$ is vacuously true, while $exists x, A(x)$ is false.



And similarly, if we allow empty domains, then your versions of the rules where we swap $exists$ and $forall$ are no longer valid. Frabala's answer gives a very nice intuitive example of this.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



The additional rules you give are indeed valid (on non-empty domains). The reason for this is that the implication $forall x, A(x) Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ is valid (on non-empty domains) - if I recall correctly, this is sometimes called "existential import".



So if $A(x) Rightarrow C$, then we have both $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, so $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow C$.



And dually, if $CRightarrow A(x)$, then we have both $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$, so $CRightarrow exists x, A(x)$.



But we don't get from this that $exists$ and $forall$ "act in exactly the same way", because the rules you've given in your question don't totally capture the meaning of $exists$ and $forall$. You need more rules.



I'm not sure what rules Kleene uses, but there are two common approaches:




  1. One approach is to also give the converses of your rules: If $exists x, A(x)Rightarrow C$, then $A(x)Rightarrow C$, and if $CRightarrow forall x, A(x)$, then $CRightarrow A(x)$ (where $x$ is not free in $C$).


  2. Another approach is to include the axioms $A(t)Rightarrow exists x, A(x)$ and $forall x, A(x)Rightarrow A(t)$, where $t$ is a term substitutable for $x$.



In either of these approaches, you'll notice that if you try to replace $exists$ by $forall$ or vice versa, the rules are obviously not sound.





One more comment: The classical approach to first-order logic assumes that every structure has non-empty domain. But this assumption is not universal. If our semantics for first-order logic allows empty domains, then existential import fails: If there are no $x$s, then $forall x, A(x)$ is vacuously true, while $exists x, A(x)$ is false.



And similarly, if we allow empty domains, then your versions of the rules where we swap $exists$ and $forall$ are no longer valid. Frabala's answer gives a very nice intuitive example of this.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Mar 25 at 19:51









Alex KruckmanAlex Kruckman

28.8k32758




28.8k32758












  • $begingroup$
    Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:55






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 22:05


















  • $begingroup$
    Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:55






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 22:05
















$begingroup$
Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 21:55




$begingroup$
Great, thanks! Do I understand correctly that you say that "if $forall x A(x) Rightarrow C$ then $A(x) Rightarrow C$" is not sound? I am not sure I understand that
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 21:55




1




1




$begingroup$
Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Mar 25 at 22:05




$begingroup$
Correct. The first means "if $A$ is true for all $x$, then $C$ is true", while the latter means "for all $x$, if $A$ is true, then $C$ is true". So for example let $C$ be a contradiction, and let $A$ be a predicate which is true for some but not all $x$. Then the first implication is true, but the second is not.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Mar 25 at 22:05











3












$begingroup$

An intuitive answer, in a world of match sticks and fire and no magic, i.e. one can not make fire out of nothing.



Consider a variable $x$ to mean a match stick. Let $A(x)$ mean "Stick $x$ smokes" and $C$ mean "There is fire".



The rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(exists x A(x))Rightarrow C$" states the very obvious: "if stick x smokes then there's fire" means "if there is some stick $x$ that smokes, then there's fire". This sentence holds in any universe of match sticks.



Now, consider your rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". It states the following: "if stick x smokes, then there's fire" means also that "if all sticks $x$ are smoking, then there's fire". This derivation is valid only in models that contain at least one object. Because in an empty universe that has no match sticks, all match sticks (which are actually none) are smoking. However, there can be no fire without match sticks!






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 19:52










  • $begingroup$
    @frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 28 at 0:26












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 29 at 20:05
















3












$begingroup$

An intuitive answer, in a world of match sticks and fire and no magic, i.e. one can not make fire out of nothing.



Consider a variable $x$ to mean a match stick. Let $A(x)$ mean "Stick $x$ smokes" and $C$ mean "There is fire".



The rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(exists x A(x))Rightarrow C$" states the very obvious: "if stick x smokes then there's fire" means "if there is some stick $x$ that smokes, then there's fire". This sentence holds in any universe of match sticks.



Now, consider your rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". It states the following: "if stick x smokes, then there's fire" means also that "if all sticks $x$ are smoking, then there's fire". This derivation is valid only in models that contain at least one object. Because in an empty universe that has no match sticks, all match sticks (which are actually none) are smoking. However, there can be no fire without match sticks!






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 19:52










  • $begingroup$
    @frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 28 at 0:26












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 29 at 20:05














3












3








3





$begingroup$

An intuitive answer, in a world of match sticks and fire and no magic, i.e. one can not make fire out of nothing.



Consider a variable $x$ to mean a match stick. Let $A(x)$ mean "Stick $x$ smokes" and $C$ mean "There is fire".



The rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(exists x A(x))Rightarrow C$" states the very obvious: "if stick x smokes then there's fire" means "if there is some stick $x$ that smokes, then there's fire". This sentence holds in any universe of match sticks.



Now, consider your rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". It states the following: "if stick x smokes, then there's fire" means also that "if all sticks $x$ are smoking, then there's fire". This derivation is valid only in models that contain at least one object. Because in an empty universe that has no match sticks, all match sticks (which are actually none) are smoking. However, there can be no fire without match sticks!






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



An intuitive answer, in a world of match sticks and fire and no magic, i.e. one can not make fire out of nothing.



Consider a variable $x$ to mean a match stick. Let $A(x)$ mean "Stick $x$ smokes" and $C$ mean "There is fire".



The rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(exists x A(x))Rightarrow C$" states the very obvious: "if stick x smokes then there's fire" means "if there is some stick $x$ that smokes, then there's fire". This sentence holds in any universe of match sticks.



Now, consider your rule "if $A(x)Rightarrow C$ then $(forall x A(x))Rightarrow C$". It states the following: "if stick x smokes, then there's fire" means also that "if all sticks $x$ are smoking, then there's fire". This derivation is valid only in models that contain at least one object. Because in an empty universe that has no match sticks, all match sticks (which are actually none) are smoking. However, there can be no fire without match sticks!







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Mar 25 at 20:03

























answered Mar 25 at 19:48









frabalafrabala

2,5341122




2,5341122












  • $begingroup$
    Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 19:52










  • $begingroup$
    @frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 28 at 0:26












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 29 at 20:05


















  • $begingroup$
    Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 25 at 19:52










  • $begingroup$
    @frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 25 at 21:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
    $endgroup$
    – frabala
    Mar 28 at 0:26












  • $begingroup$
    @frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
    $endgroup$
    – Daniels Krimans
    Mar 29 at 20:05
















$begingroup$
Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Mar 25 at 19:52




$begingroup$
Nice example illustrating the point about existential import and empty domains in my answer.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Mar 25 at 19:52












$begingroup$
@frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 21:39




$begingroup$
@frabala do I understand correctly that whenever I have at least one object in my domain then all four of my stated inference rules hold?
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 25 at 21:39




1




1




$begingroup$
@DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
$endgroup$
– frabala
Mar 28 at 0:26






$begingroup$
@DanielsKrimans I guess you could add your extra rules as inference rules, although as Alex Kruckman shows in his answer, those extra rules can be derived by the original two rules plus the axiom $forall x A(x)Rightarrow exists x A(x)$. So you only need to add that axiom.
$endgroup$
– frabala
Mar 28 at 0:26














$begingroup$
@frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 29 at 20:05




$begingroup$
@frabala Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate your time!
$endgroup$
– Daniels Krimans
Mar 29 at 20:05


















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