Is the Born rule indeed wrong?2019 Community Moderator Election Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern) 2019 Moderator Election Q&A - QuestionnaireBorn rule and unitary evolutionAre probability-preserving variations of QT with respect to the Born rule mathematically possible?Could quantum mechanics work without the Born rule?Born rule for photons: it works, but it shouldn't?Can the Born rule be derived?What are “interferences of higher order” in the context of Born rule and triple-slit diffraction?If the Many Worlds interpretation (MWI) cannot derive the Born rule, would that mean that it is wrong?Validity of Born RuleGeneralizing Born ruleTwo Time Correlation function calculated from Born rule

What helicopter has the most rotor blades?

Marquee sign letters

Is my guitar’s action too high?

Combining list in a Cartesian product format with addition operation?

Why did Europeans not widely domesticate foxes?

What documents does someone with a long-term visa need to travel to another Schengen country?

Book about a teenager and alien

Can I take recommendation from someone I met at a conference?

Are Flameskulls resistant to magical piercing damage?

Are bags of holding fireproof?

Can 'non' with gerundive mean both lack of obligation and negative obligation?

Lights are flickering on and off after accidentally bumping into light switch

Etymology of 見舞い

Why do C and C++ allow the expression (int) + 4*5?

Coin Game with infinite paradox

Does GDPR cover the collection of data by websites that crawl the web and resell user data

What is the evidence that custom checks in Northern Ireland are going to result in violence?

/bin/ls sorts differently than just ls

Does Prince Arnaud cause someone holding the Princess to lose?

Raising a bilingual kid. When should we introduce the majority language?

Are there any AGPL-style licences that require source code modifications to be public?

Pointing to problems without suggesting solutions

Should man-made satellites feature an intelligent inverted "cow catcher"?

What could prevent concentrated local exploration?



Is the Born rule indeed wrong?



2019 Community Moderator Election
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)
2019 Moderator Election Q&A - QuestionnaireBorn rule and unitary evolutionAre probability-preserving variations of QT with respect to the Born rule mathematically possible?Could quantum mechanics work without the Born rule?Born rule for photons: it works, but it shouldn't?Can the Born rule be derived?What are “interferences of higher order” in the context of Born rule and triple-slit diffraction?If the Many Worlds interpretation (MWI) cannot derive the Born rule, would that mean that it is wrong?Validity of Born RuleGeneralizing Born ruleTwo Time Correlation function calculated from Born rule










5












$begingroup$


This is a question about the validity of a paper recently published which claims that the "Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is incorrect" (same title, by "Guang-Liang Li and Victor O.K. Li, dated 23/09/2005).



This is a question about physics, and it can be answered. A reminder, whether the Born rule is correct or not is not a question which QM can answer. In other words, the fact that QM is correct, or consistent, or (in)complete, or that QM provides accurate predictions is irrelevant here. The Born rule (in my understanding) could be seen as an axiom to explain (in a certain way) the measurement problem in QM. It appears valid that such a hypothesis is inspected for consistency or validity, like the paper does. The paper claims (among other points) that the Born rule is not valid, and is based on false assumptions.



It would take me a long time to verify myself, step-by-step that a) the derivation of Li and Li is correct, and b) that it is not based on wrong assumption concerning Born's rule.



So here is my question: has anybody studied the paper, and come to the conclusion that the paper's claims are either incorrect, or unfounded?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    A quick search provided this comment : arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0509130
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: That should be an answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    5 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please take a minute to read Is Physics SE an appropriate location for peer review?. This questions looks on the Too Broad side to me, though a summary of the paper in @StephenG's link could do (though there is at least one nontrivial round of back-and-forth, cf. Appendix C of Li and Li).
    $endgroup$
    – Emilio Pisanty
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'm reluctant to post an answer precisely to avoid the peer review issue, but the current version of the original paper does have a response to this. I'm somewhat out of my depth on that mathematics so I'm not really in a position to say which is right or wrong (and that, again, would be a peer review issue - there's no winning :-) ).
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    4 hours ago















5












$begingroup$


This is a question about the validity of a paper recently published which claims that the "Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is incorrect" (same title, by "Guang-Liang Li and Victor O.K. Li, dated 23/09/2005).



This is a question about physics, and it can be answered. A reminder, whether the Born rule is correct or not is not a question which QM can answer. In other words, the fact that QM is correct, or consistent, or (in)complete, or that QM provides accurate predictions is irrelevant here. The Born rule (in my understanding) could be seen as an axiom to explain (in a certain way) the measurement problem in QM. It appears valid that such a hypothesis is inspected for consistency or validity, like the paper does. The paper claims (among other points) that the Born rule is not valid, and is based on false assumptions.



It would take me a long time to verify myself, step-by-step that a) the derivation of Li and Li is correct, and b) that it is not based on wrong assumption concerning Born's rule.



So here is my question: has anybody studied the paper, and come to the conclusion that the paper's claims are either incorrect, or unfounded?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    A quick search provided this comment : arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0509130
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: That should be an answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    5 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please take a minute to read Is Physics SE an appropriate location for peer review?. This questions looks on the Too Broad side to me, though a summary of the paper in @StephenG's link could do (though there is at least one nontrivial round of back-and-forth, cf. Appendix C of Li and Li).
    $endgroup$
    – Emilio Pisanty
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'm reluctant to post an answer precisely to avoid the peer review issue, but the current version of the original paper does have a response to this. I'm somewhat out of my depth on that mathematics so I'm not really in a position to say which is right or wrong (and that, again, would be a peer review issue - there's no winning :-) ).
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    4 hours ago













5












5








5


2



$begingroup$


This is a question about the validity of a paper recently published which claims that the "Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is incorrect" (same title, by "Guang-Liang Li and Victor O.K. Li, dated 23/09/2005).



This is a question about physics, and it can be answered. A reminder, whether the Born rule is correct or not is not a question which QM can answer. In other words, the fact that QM is correct, or consistent, or (in)complete, or that QM provides accurate predictions is irrelevant here. The Born rule (in my understanding) could be seen as an axiom to explain (in a certain way) the measurement problem in QM. It appears valid that such a hypothesis is inspected for consistency or validity, like the paper does. The paper claims (among other points) that the Born rule is not valid, and is based on false assumptions.



It would take me a long time to verify myself, step-by-step that a) the derivation of Li and Li is correct, and b) that it is not based on wrong assumption concerning Born's rule.



So here is my question: has anybody studied the paper, and come to the conclusion that the paper's claims are either incorrect, or unfounded?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




This is a question about the validity of a paper recently published which claims that the "Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is incorrect" (same title, by "Guang-Liang Li and Victor O.K. Li, dated 23/09/2005).



This is a question about physics, and it can be answered. A reminder, whether the Born rule is correct or not is not a question which QM can answer. In other words, the fact that QM is correct, or consistent, or (in)complete, or that QM provides accurate predictions is irrelevant here. The Born rule (in my understanding) could be seen as an axiom to explain (in a certain way) the measurement problem in QM. It appears valid that such a hypothesis is inspected for consistency or validity, like the paper does. The paper claims (among other points) that the Born rule is not valid, and is based on false assumptions.



It would take me a long time to verify myself, step-by-step that a) the derivation of Li and Li is correct, and b) that it is not based on wrong assumption concerning Born's rule.



So here is my question: has anybody studied the paper, and come to the conclusion that the paper's claims are either incorrect, or unfounded?







quantum-mechanics probability quantum-interpretations measurement-problem born-rule






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago









Qmechanic

108k122001253




108k122001253






New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 5 hours ago









JuergenJuergen

322




322




New contributor




Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Juergen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    A quick search provided this comment : arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0509130
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: That should be an answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    5 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please take a minute to read Is Physics SE an appropriate location for peer review?. This questions looks on the Too Broad side to me, though a summary of the paper in @StephenG's link could do (though there is at least one nontrivial round of back-and-forth, cf. Appendix C of Li and Li).
    $endgroup$
    – Emilio Pisanty
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'm reluctant to post an answer precisely to avoid the peer review issue, but the current version of the original paper does have a response to this. I'm somewhat out of my depth on that mathematics so I'm not really in a position to say which is right or wrong (and that, again, would be a peer review issue - there's no winning :-) ).
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    4 hours ago












  • 4




    $begingroup$
    A quick search provided this comment : arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0509130
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: That should be an answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    5 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please take a minute to read Is Physics SE an appropriate location for peer review?. This questions looks on the Too Broad side to me, though a summary of the paper in @StephenG's link could do (though there is at least one nontrivial round of back-and-forth, cf. Appendix C of Li and Li).
    $endgroup$
    – Emilio Pisanty
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'm reluctant to post an answer precisely to avoid the peer review issue, but the current version of the original paper does have a response to this. I'm somewhat out of my depth on that mathematics so I'm not really in a position to say which is right or wrong (and that, again, would be a peer review issue - there's no winning :-) ).
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    4 hours ago







4




4




$begingroup$
A quick search provided this comment : arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0509130
$endgroup$
– StephenG
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
A quick search provided this comment : arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0509130
$endgroup$
– StephenG
5 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@StephenG: That should be an answer.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
@StephenG: That should be an answer.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
5 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
Please take a minute to read Is Physics SE an appropriate location for peer review?. This questions looks on the Too Broad side to me, though a summary of the paper in @StephenG's link could do (though there is at least one nontrivial round of back-and-forth, cf. Appendix C of Li and Li).
$endgroup$
– Emilio Pisanty
5 hours ago





$begingroup$
Please take a minute to read Is Physics SE an appropriate location for peer review?. This questions looks on the Too Broad side to me, though a summary of the paper in @StephenG's link could do (though there is at least one nontrivial round of back-and-forth, cf. Appendix C of Li and Li).
$endgroup$
– Emilio Pisanty
5 hours ago













$begingroup$
I'm reluctant to post an answer precisely to avoid the peer review issue, but the current version of the original paper does have a response to this. I'm somewhat out of my depth on that mathematics so I'm not really in a position to say which is right or wrong (and that, again, would be a peer review issue - there's no winning :-) ).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
I'm reluctant to post an answer precisely to avoid the peer review issue, but the current version of the original paper does have a response to this. I'm somewhat out of my depth on that mathematics so I'm not really in a position to say which is right or wrong (and that, again, would be a peer review issue - there's no winning :-) ).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
4 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















14












$begingroup$

As StephenG mentioned in a comment, the paper you're asking about is the subject of a commentary in arXiv:quant-ph/0509130, by Markus Bier; Li and Li attempt a rebuttal of that comment in Appendix C of v2 of their paper.



The comment by Markus Bier is phrased in dry academic language, and there are certain aspects of the phrasing that simply do not fit within the format of an arXiv eprint. So, let me fill those back in:



  • Theorem $1$ in Li and Li's paper is grossly incorrect, and it represents an almost-comical degree of lack of understanding of how mathematical probability works.

For those who cannot be bothered to test dig into the papers themselves, here's the offending theorem:




Theorem 1: For a probability space $(Ω, mathcal F, P)$, there are values almost everywhere in $(0, 1)$ that the probability measure $P$ cannot take.




(Here, as usual $mathcal F$ is a $sigma$-algebra on $Omega$, and $P:mathcal Fto [0,1]$ is a probability measure.) As Bier points out, this is obviously wrong, and it is in explicit conflict with the basic examples constructed in any undergraduate-mathematics measure-theory class, with the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ being the most obvious example.



(Li and Li then go on to state, in their response, that the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ is "merely an assumption in the disguise of a definition" and that its construction "causes contradictions". Float that by the next measure theorist or mathematical probabilist you meet, and see what they think about it.)



The core error in the proof is in the third paragraph, and it boils down to the fact, pointed out by Markus Bier, that $G(mathcal F)$ (as Li and Li define it) is not guaranteed to be a countable set. The implication is this: they attempt to argue that $cup_Fin G(mathcal F) Phi(F)$ is contained in a union of sets with arbitrarily small measure, so it must have arbitrarily small measure. The claim would work if the union were countable, but it breaks down for uncountable unions like the one in use.



Frankly, by the time a paper has gotten this much basic stuff wrong, that's when you should stop reading. The paper is attempting to make a deep claim about the nature of physical reality, and it is attempting to bury the justification of that claim in enough esoteric-looking measure theory that physicists won't question it; and when someone did poke the obvious holes at their faulty arguments, they just attempted to pile more jargon on top of it.



So, to put it plainly: this paper offers no contribution of substance, and it can safely be ignored.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "151"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );






    Juergen is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f474379%2fis-the-born-rule-indeed-wrong%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    14












    $begingroup$

    As StephenG mentioned in a comment, the paper you're asking about is the subject of a commentary in arXiv:quant-ph/0509130, by Markus Bier; Li and Li attempt a rebuttal of that comment in Appendix C of v2 of their paper.



    The comment by Markus Bier is phrased in dry academic language, and there are certain aspects of the phrasing that simply do not fit within the format of an arXiv eprint. So, let me fill those back in:



    • Theorem $1$ in Li and Li's paper is grossly incorrect, and it represents an almost-comical degree of lack of understanding of how mathematical probability works.

    For those who cannot be bothered to test dig into the papers themselves, here's the offending theorem:




    Theorem 1: For a probability space $(Ω, mathcal F, P)$, there are values almost everywhere in $(0, 1)$ that the probability measure $P$ cannot take.




    (Here, as usual $mathcal F$ is a $sigma$-algebra on $Omega$, and $P:mathcal Fto [0,1]$ is a probability measure.) As Bier points out, this is obviously wrong, and it is in explicit conflict with the basic examples constructed in any undergraduate-mathematics measure-theory class, with the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ being the most obvious example.



    (Li and Li then go on to state, in their response, that the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ is "merely an assumption in the disguise of a definition" and that its construction "causes contradictions". Float that by the next measure theorist or mathematical probabilist you meet, and see what they think about it.)



    The core error in the proof is in the third paragraph, and it boils down to the fact, pointed out by Markus Bier, that $G(mathcal F)$ (as Li and Li define it) is not guaranteed to be a countable set. The implication is this: they attempt to argue that $cup_Fin G(mathcal F) Phi(F)$ is contained in a union of sets with arbitrarily small measure, so it must have arbitrarily small measure. The claim would work if the union were countable, but it breaks down for uncountable unions like the one in use.



    Frankly, by the time a paper has gotten this much basic stuff wrong, that's when you should stop reading. The paper is attempting to make a deep claim about the nature of physical reality, and it is attempting to bury the justification of that claim in enough esoteric-looking measure theory that physicists won't question it; and when someone did poke the obvious holes at their faulty arguments, they just attempted to pile more jargon on top of it.



    So, to put it plainly: this paper offers no contribution of substance, and it can safely be ignored.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      14












      $begingroup$

      As StephenG mentioned in a comment, the paper you're asking about is the subject of a commentary in arXiv:quant-ph/0509130, by Markus Bier; Li and Li attempt a rebuttal of that comment in Appendix C of v2 of their paper.



      The comment by Markus Bier is phrased in dry academic language, and there are certain aspects of the phrasing that simply do not fit within the format of an arXiv eprint. So, let me fill those back in:



      • Theorem $1$ in Li and Li's paper is grossly incorrect, and it represents an almost-comical degree of lack of understanding of how mathematical probability works.

      For those who cannot be bothered to test dig into the papers themselves, here's the offending theorem:




      Theorem 1: For a probability space $(Ω, mathcal F, P)$, there are values almost everywhere in $(0, 1)$ that the probability measure $P$ cannot take.




      (Here, as usual $mathcal F$ is a $sigma$-algebra on $Omega$, and $P:mathcal Fto [0,1]$ is a probability measure.) As Bier points out, this is obviously wrong, and it is in explicit conflict with the basic examples constructed in any undergraduate-mathematics measure-theory class, with the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ being the most obvious example.



      (Li and Li then go on to state, in their response, that the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ is "merely an assumption in the disguise of a definition" and that its construction "causes contradictions". Float that by the next measure theorist or mathematical probabilist you meet, and see what they think about it.)



      The core error in the proof is in the third paragraph, and it boils down to the fact, pointed out by Markus Bier, that $G(mathcal F)$ (as Li and Li define it) is not guaranteed to be a countable set. The implication is this: they attempt to argue that $cup_Fin G(mathcal F) Phi(F)$ is contained in a union of sets with arbitrarily small measure, so it must have arbitrarily small measure. The claim would work if the union were countable, but it breaks down for uncountable unions like the one in use.



      Frankly, by the time a paper has gotten this much basic stuff wrong, that's when you should stop reading. The paper is attempting to make a deep claim about the nature of physical reality, and it is attempting to bury the justification of that claim in enough esoteric-looking measure theory that physicists won't question it; and when someone did poke the obvious holes at their faulty arguments, they just attempted to pile more jargon on top of it.



      So, to put it plainly: this paper offers no contribution of substance, and it can safely be ignored.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        14












        14








        14





        $begingroup$

        As StephenG mentioned in a comment, the paper you're asking about is the subject of a commentary in arXiv:quant-ph/0509130, by Markus Bier; Li and Li attempt a rebuttal of that comment in Appendix C of v2 of their paper.



        The comment by Markus Bier is phrased in dry academic language, and there are certain aspects of the phrasing that simply do not fit within the format of an arXiv eprint. So, let me fill those back in:



        • Theorem $1$ in Li and Li's paper is grossly incorrect, and it represents an almost-comical degree of lack of understanding of how mathematical probability works.

        For those who cannot be bothered to test dig into the papers themselves, here's the offending theorem:




        Theorem 1: For a probability space $(Ω, mathcal F, P)$, there are values almost everywhere in $(0, 1)$ that the probability measure $P$ cannot take.




        (Here, as usual $mathcal F$ is a $sigma$-algebra on $Omega$, and $P:mathcal Fto [0,1]$ is a probability measure.) As Bier points out, this is obviously wrong, and it is in explicit conflict with the basic examples constructed in any undergraduate-mathematics measure-theory class, with the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ being the most obvious example.



        (Li and Li then go on to state, in their response, that the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ is "merely an assumption in the disguise of a definition" and that its construction "causes contradictions". Float that by the next measure theorist or mathematical probabilist you meet, and see what they think about it.)



        The core error in the proof is in the third paragraph, and it boils down to the fact, pointed out by Markus Bier, that $G(mathcal F)$ (as Li and Li define it) is not guaranteed to be a countable set. The implication is this: they attempt to argue that $cup_Fin G(mathcal F) Phi(F)$ is contained in a union of sets with arbitrarily small measure, so it must have arbitrarily small measure. The claim would work if the union were countable, but it breaks down for uncountable unions like the one in use.



        Frankly, by the time a paper has gotten this much basic stuff wrong, that's when you should stop reading. The paper is attempting to make a deep claim about the nature of physical reality, and it is attempting to bury the justification of that claim in enough esoteric-looking measure theory that physicists won't question it; and when someone did poke the obvious holes at their faulty arguments, they just attempted to pile more jargon on top of it.



        So, to put it plainly: this paper offers no contribution of substance, and it can safely be ignored.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        As StephenG mentioned in a comment, the paper you're asking about is the subject of a commentary in arXiv:quant-ph/0509130, by Markus Bier; Li and Li attempt a rebuttal of that comment in Appendix C of v2 of their paper.



        The comment by Markus Bier is phrased in dry academic language, and there are certain aspects of the phrasing that simply do not fit within the format of an arXiv eprint. So, let me fill those back in:



        • Theorem $1$ in Li and Li's paper is grossly incorrect, and it represents an almost-comical degree of lack of understanding of how mathematical probability works.

        For those who cannot be bothered to test dig into the papers themselves, here's the offending theorem:




        Theorem 1: For a probability space $(Ω, mathcal F, P)$, there are values almost everywhere in $(0, 1)$ that the probability measure $P$ cannot take.




        (Here, as usual $mathcal F$ is a $sigma$-algebra on $Omega$, and $P:mathcal Fto [0,1]$ is a probability measure.) As Bier points out, this is obviously wrong, and it is in explicit conflict with the basic examples constructed in any undergraduate-mathematics measure-theory class, with the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ being the most obvious example.



        (Li and Li then go on to state, in their response, that the usual Lebesgue-Borel measure on $mathbb R$ is "merely an assumption in the disguise of a definition" and that its construction "causes contradictions". Float that by the next measure theorist or mathematical probabilist you meet, and see what they think about it.)



        The core error in the proof is in the third paragraph, and it boils down to the fact, pointed out by Markus Bier, that $G(mathcal F)$ (as Li and Li define it) is not guaranteed to be a countable set. The implication is this: they attempt to argue that $cup_Fin G(mathcal F) Phi(F)$ is contained in a union of sets with arbitrarily small measure, so it must have arbitrarily small measure. The claim would work if the union were countable, but it breaks down for uncountable unions like the one in use.



        Frankly, by the time a paper has gotten this much basic stuff wrong, that's when you should stop reading. The paper is attempting to make a deep claim about the nature of physical reality, and it is attempting to bury the justification of that claim in enough esoteric-looking measure theory that physicists won't question it; and when someone did poke the obvious holes at their faulty arguments, they just attempted to pile more jargon on top of it.



        So, to put it plainly: this paper offers no contribution of substance, and it can safely be ignored.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 4 hours ago

























        answered 4 hours ago









        Emilio PisantyEmilio Pisanty

        87.5k23218443




        87.5k23218443




















            Juergen is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            Juergen is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












            Juergen is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











            Juergen is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














            Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f474379%2fis-the-born-rule-indeed-wrong%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            六本木駅

            Integral that is continuous and looks like it converges to a geometric seriesTesting if a geometric series converges by taking limit to infinitySummation of arithmetic-geometric series of higher orderGeometric series with polynomial exponentHow to Recognize a Geometric SeriesShowing an integral equality with series over the integersDiscontinuity of a series of continuous functionsReasons why a Series ConvergesSum of infinite geometric series with two terms in summationUsing geometric series for computing IntegralsLimit of geometric series sum when $r = 1$

            Joseph Lister