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Visualization of groups with a normal subgroup_rev#1


Favourite proofs with a visualizationHow to visualise Bollobas' 1965 theorem?How many $g$ in a finite group are such that $b=g^{-1}ag$ for given $ane b$ in the group?Given a finite group, does this equation involving group's order, a partition of it and centralizers' orders hold?_Attempt#2Is this Proposition equivalent to the Class Equation or does it bring some more information?Visual representations of groups (in their symmetric groups)_part#2Visualization of groups with a normal subgroup$H triangleleft G$, $h in H$. $C_G(h)g cap H ne emptyset, forall g in G$ implies $lbrace C_G(h)g cap H, g in G rbrace$ partition of $H$?Locus equation in a non-simple groupLocus equation in a non-simple group_part#2













2












$begingroup$


Let $G$ be a group and $H unlhd G$. In general, $H=H_Z sqcup H_{G setminus Z}$, where $H_Z:=H cap Z(G)$ and $H_{G setminus Z}:=H cap (G setminus Z(G))$. I'm investigating on a plausible visual model for the pair $(G,H)$. I'll provisionally retain the following one, till some inconsistency will pop up for revision/reject. By "inconsistency" I mean either a contradiction with, or the inability to show, known algebraic facts.





  1. $G$ is the euclidean 3-space and $e$ its (geometrical) center;

  2. given $g in G setminus Z(G)$, the centralizer $C_G(g)$ is a ball whose poles are $g$ and the element $g_{operatorname{op}}$, opposite to $g$ with respect to $e$ and distant $mathtt{r}_Z$ from $e$;

  3. by 2, $Z(G)=bigcap_{g in G}C_G(g)$ is the ball centered in $e$ of radius $mathtt{r}_Z$;
    enter image description here

  4. given $g in G$, the right cosets $C_G(g)g'$, $g' in G$, are eccentric, thick "shells" embedding $C_G(g)$ ("onion"-like); the eccentricity gives the possibility to single out as another partition of $G$ the one made of the left cosets; shell's average thickness is a decresing function of shell's size, so as to get a hint of the bijection between any pair of cosets (constant volume);
    enter image description here


  5. $forall h in H_Z$, the conjugacy orbit by $h$ is pointwise, being $O_h=lbrace g^{-1}hg, g in G rbrace = lbrace h rbrace$;

  6. by 5, $H_Z$ is an axis of $Z(G)$ (or anything topologically equivalent to that);

  7. once popped out of $Z(G)$, conjugacy orbits become real ones, namely circles around the axis induced by $H_Z$, which globally form a "polar" toroidal surface, embedding $Z(G)$ (this is $H_{G setminus Z}$);


  8. $H$ splits $G setminus H$ into two regions: an "inner" one and an "outer" one, say $G setminus H = G_{<H} sqcup G_{>H}$; given $g in G_{<H}$, the coset $Hg$ is the toroidal surface by $g$, slicing $Z(G)$; given $g' in G_{>H}$, the coset $Hg'$ is the surface by $g'$, embedding $H$ and topologically equivalent to a 2-sphere.
    enter image description here


This model is possibly still far from the "reality", but maybe we can get a better one by addressing some points raised by this one:



#1. Does $H$'s closure have some algebraic validity? What would it mean?



#2. Would the special case $Z(G)=lbrace e rbrace$ be consistently described by the above model, i.e. with $Z(G)$ "deflated" down to one point?



#3. Given $h in H_{G setminus Z}$, are the algebraic loci $C_G(h) cap H$ and $C_G(h) cap O_h$ suitably accounted for in terms of the sphere/torus crossing expected from the model?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Great question! (+1)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:27










  • $begingroup$
    I mean: I don't follow it exactly as it might be beyond me but it looks very interesting, certainly; what I understand of it looks alright to me.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:32










  • $begingroup$
    How did you make the diagrams (i.e., what software did you use)?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:41












  • $begingroup$
    Just MS Office shapes package (Word, PowerPoint,...).
    $endgroup$
    – Luca
    Mar 19 at 16:46










  • $begingroup$
    I can't make head or tail of this. What is $g_{op}$? What is $r_Z$? etc. Could you explain what your model looks like for, say, $S_3$? (The smallest non-abelian group.)
    $endgroup$
    – verret
    Mar 20 at 6:58


















2












$begingroup$


Let $G$ be a group and $H unlhd G$. In general, $H=H_Z sqcup H_{G setminus Z}$, where $H_Z:=H cap Z(G)$ and $H_{G setminus Z}:=H cap (G setminus Z(G))$. I'm investigating on a plausible visual model for the pair $(G,H)$. I'll provisionally retain the following one, till some inconsistency will pop up for revision/reject. By "inconsistency" I mean either a contradiction with, or the inability to show, known algebraic facts.





  1. $G$ is the euclidean 3-space and $e$ its (geometrical) center;

  2. given $g in G setminus Z(G)$, the centralizer $C_G(g)$ is a ball whose poles are $g$ and the element $g_{operatorname{op}}$, opposite to $g$ with respect to $e$ and distant $mathtt{r}_Z$ from $e$;

  3. by 2, $Z(G)=bigcap_{g in G}C_G(g)$ is the ball centered in $e$ of radius $mathtt{r}_Z$;
    enter image description here

  4. given $g in G$, the right cosets $C_G(g)g'$, $g' in G$, are eccentric, thick "shells" embedding $C_G(g)$ ("onion"-like); the eccentricity gives the possibility to single out as another partition of $G$ the one made of the left cosets; shell's average thickness is a decresing function of shell's size, so as to get a hint of the bijection between any pair of cosets (constant volume);
    enter image description here


  5. $forall h in H_Z$, the conjugacy orbit by $h$ is pointwise, being $O_h=lbrace g^{-1}hg, g in G rbrace = lbrace h rbrace$;

  6. by 5, $H_Z$ is an axis of $Z(G)$ (or anything topologically equivalent to that);

  7. once popped out of $Z(G)$, conjugacy orbits become real ones, namely circles around the axis induced by $H_Z$, which globally form a "polar" toroidal surface, embedding $Z(G)$ (this is $H_{G setminus Z}$);


  8. $H$ splits $G setminus H$ into two regions: an "inner" one and an "outer" one, say $G setminus H = G_{<H} sqcup G_{>H}$; given $g in G_{<H}$, the coset $Hg$ is the toroidal surface by $g$, slicing $Z(G)$; given $g' in G_{>H}$, the coset $Hg'$ is the surface by $g'$, embedding $H$ and topologically equivalent to a 2-sphere.
    enter image description here


This model is possibly still far from the "reality", but maybe we can get a better one by addressing some points raised by this one:



#1. Does $H$'s closure have some algebraic validity? What would it mean?



#2. Would the special case $Z(G)=lbrace e rbrace$ be consistently described by the above model, i.e. with $Z(G)$ "deflated" down to one point?



#3. Given $h in H_{G setminus Z}$, are the algebraic loci $C_G(h) cap H$ and $C_G(h) cap O_h$ suitably accounted for in terms of the sphere/torus crossing expected from the model?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Great question! (+1)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:27










  • $begingroup$
    I mean: I don't follow it exactly as it might be beyond me but it looks very interesting, certainly; what I understand of it looks alright to me.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:32










  • $begingroup$
    How did you make the diagrams (i.e., what software did you use)?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:41












  • $begingroup$
    Just MS Office shapes package (Word, PowerPoint,...).
    $endgroup$
    – Luca
    Mar 19 at 16:46










  • $begingroup$
    I can't make head or tail of this. What is $g_{op}$? What is $r_Z$? etc. Could you explain what your model looks like for, say, $S_3$? (The smallest non-abelian group.)
    $endgroup$
    – verret
    Mar 20 at 6:58
















2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


Let $G$ be a group and $H unlhd G$. In general, $H=H_Z sqcup H_{G setminus Z}$, where $H_Z:=H cap Z(G)$ and $H_{G setminus Z}:=H cap (G setminus Z(G))$. I'm investigating on a plausible visual model for the pair $(G,H)$. I'll provisionally retain the following one, till some inconsistency will pop up for revision/reject. By "inconsistency" I mean either a contradiction with, or the inability to show, known algebraic facts.





  1. $G$ is the euclidean 3-space and $e$ its (geometrical) center;

  2. given $g in G setminus Z(G)$, the centralizer $C_G(g)$ is a ball whose poles are $g$ and the element $g_{operatorname{op}}$, opposite to $g$ with respect to $e$ and distant $mathtt{r}_Z$ from $e$;

  3. by 2, $Z(G)=bigcap_{g in G}C_G(g)$ is the ball centered in $e$ of radius $mathtt{r}_Z$;
    enter image description here

  4. given $g in G$, the right cosets $C_G(g)g'$, $g' in G$, are eccentric, thick "shells" embedding $C_G(g)$ ("onion"-like); the eccentricity gives the possibility to single out as another partition of $G$ the one made of the left cosets; shell's average thickness is a decresing function of shell's size, so as to get a hint of the bijection between any pair of cosets (constant volume);
    enter image description here


  5. $forall h in H_Z$, the conjugacy orbit by $h$ is pointwise, being $O_h=lbrace g^{-1}hg, g in G rbrace = lbrace h rbrace$;

  6. by 5, $H_Z$ is an axis of $Z(G)$ (or anything topologically equivalent to that);

  7. once popped out of $Z(G)$, conjugacy orbits become real ones, namely circles around the axis induced by $H_Z$, which globally form a "polar" toroidal surface, embedding $Z(G)$ (this is $H_{G setminus Z}$);


  8. $H$ splits $G setminus H$ into two regions: an "inner" one and an "outer" one, say $G setminus H = G_{<H} sqcup G_{>H}$; given $g in G_{<H}$, the coset $Hg$ is the toroidal surface by $g$, slicing $Z(G)$; given $g' in G_{>H}$, the coset $Hg'$ is the surface by $g'$, embedding $H$ and topologically equivalent to a 2-sphere.
    enter image description here


This model is possibly still far from the "reality", but maybe we can get a better one by addressing some points raised by this one:



#1. Does $H$'s closure have some algebraic validity? What would it mean?



#2. Would the special case $Z(G)=lbrace e rbrace$ be consistently described by the above model, i.e. with $Z(G)$ "deflated" down to one point?



#3. Given $h in H_{G setminus Z}$, are the algebraic loci $C_G(h) cap H$ and $C_G(h) cap O_h$ suitably accounted for in terms of the sphere/torus crossing expected from the model?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Let $G$ be a group and $H unlhd G$. In general, $H=H_Z sqcup H_{G setminus Z}$, where $H_Z:=H cap Z(G)$ and $H_{G setminus Z}:=H cap (G setminus Z(G))$. I'm investigating on a plausible visual model for the pair $(G,H)$. I'll provisionally retain the following one, till some inconsistency will pop up for revision/reject. By "inconsistency" I mean either a contradiction with, or the inability to show, known algebraic facts.





  1. $G$ is the euclidean 3-space and $e$ its (geometrical) center;

  2. given $g in G setminus Z(G)$, the centralizer $C_G(g)$ is a ball whose poles are $g$ and the element $g_{operatorname{op}}$, opposite to $g$ with respect to $e$ and distant $mathtt{r}_Z$ from $e$;

  3. by 2, $Z(G)=bigcap_{g in G}C_G(g)$ is the ball centered in $e$ of radius $mathtt{r}_Z$;
    enter image description here

  4. given $g in G$, the right cosets $C_G(g)g'$, $g' in G$, are eccentric, thick "shells" embedding $C_G(g)$ ("onion"-like); the eccentricity gives the possibility to single out as another partition of $G$ the one made of the left cosets; shell's average thickness is a decresing function of shell's size, so as to get a hint of the bijection between any pair of cosets (constant volume);
    enter image description here


  5. $forall h in H_Z$, the conjugacy orbit by $h$ is pointwise, being $O_h=lbrace g^{-1}hg, g in G rbrace = lbrace h rbrace$;

  6. by 5, $H_Z$ is an axis of $Z(G)$ (or anything topologically equivalent to that);

  7. once popped out of $Z(G)$, conjugacy orbits become real ones, namely circles around the axis induced by $H_Z$, which globally form a "polar" toroidal surface, embedding $Z(G)$ (this is $H_{G setminus Z}$);


  8. $H$ splits $G setminus H$ into two regions: an "inner" one and an "outer" one, say $G setminus H = G_{<H} sqcup G_{>H}$; given $g in G_{<H}$, the coset $Hg$ is the toroidal surface by $g$, slicing $Z(G)$; given $g' in G_{>H}$, the coset $Hg'$ is the surface by $g'$, embedding $H$ and topologically equivalent to a 2-sphere.
    enter image description here


This model is possibly still far from the "reality", but maybe we can get a better one by addressing some points raised by this one:



#1. Does $H$'s closure have some algebraic validity? What would it mean?



#2. Would the special case $Z(G)=lbrace e rbrace$ be consistently described by the above model, i.e. with $Z(G)$ "deflated" down to one point?



#3. Given $h in H_{G setminus Z}$, are the algebraic loci $C_G(h) cap H$ and $C_G(h) cap O_h$ suitably accounted for in terms of the sphere/torus crossing expected from the model?







abstract-algebra group-theory soft-question normal-subgroups visualization






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 26 at 7:32







Luca

















asked Mar 19 at 16:11









LucaLuca

405110




405110












  • $begingroup$
    Great question! (+1)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:27










  • $begingroup$
    I mean: I don't follow it exactly as it might be beyond me but it looks very interesting, certainly; what I understand of it looks alright to me.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:32










  • $begingroup$
    How did you make the diagrams (i.e., what software did you use)?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:41












  • $begingroup$
    Just MS Office shapes package (Word, PowerPoint,...).
    $endgroup$
    – Luca
    Mar 19 at 16:46










  • $begingroup$
    I can't make head or tail of this. What is $g_{op}$? What is $r_Z$? etc. Could you explain what your model looks like for, say, $S_3$? (The smallest non-abelian group.)
    $endgroup$
    – verret
    Mar 20 at 6:58




















  • $begingroup$
    Great question! (+1)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:27










  • $begingroup$
    I mean: I don't follow it exactly as it might be beyond me but it looks very interesting, certainly; what I understand of it looks alright to me.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:32










  • $begingroup$
    How did you make the diagrams (i.e., what software did you use)?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Mar 19 at 16:41












  • $begingroup$
    Just MS Office shapes package (Word, PowerPoint,...).
    $endgroup$
    – Luca
    Mar 19 at 16:46










  • $begingroup$
    I can't make head or tail of this. What is $g_{op}$? What is $r_Z$? etc. Could you explain what your model looks like for, say, $S_3$? (The smallest non-abelian group.)
    $endgroup$
    – verret
    Mar 20 at 6:58


















$begingroup$
Great question! (+1)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Mar 19 at 16:27




$begingroup$
Great question! (+1)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Mar 19 at 16:27












$begingroup$
I mean: I don't follow it exactly as it might be beyond me but it looks very interesting, certainly; what I understand of it looks alright to me.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Mar 19 at 16:32




$begingroup$
I mean: I don't follow it exactly as it might be beyond me but it looks very interesting, certainly; what I understand of it looks alright to me.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Mar 19 at 16:32












$begingroup$
How did you make the diagrams (i.e., what software did you use)?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Mar 19 at 16:41






$begingroup$
How did you make the diagrams (i.e., what software did you use)?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Mar 19 at 16:41














$begingroup$
Just MS Office shapes package (Word, PowerPoint,...).
$endgroup$
– Luca
Mar 19 at 16:46




$begingroup$
Just MS Office shapes package (Word, PowerPoint,...).
$endgroup$
– Luca
Mar 19 at 16:46












$begingroup$
I can't make head or tail of this. What is $g_{op}$? What is $r_Z$? etc. Could you explain what your model looks like for, say, $S_3$? (The smallest non-abelian group.)
$endgroup$
– verret
Mar 20 at 6:58






$begingroup$
I can't make head or tail of this. What is $g_{op}$? What is $r_Z$? etc. Could you explain what your model looks like for, say, $S_3$? (The smallest non-abelian group.)
$endgroup$
– verret
Mar 20 at 6:58












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

I am reading the question as you are asking if there is a group $G$ and a subgroup $H$ that satisfy the above properties. I haven't read through all of your properties, but it is already impossible with properties 2, 3.



Namely, say you have a group $G$ which can be identified with $mathbb R^3$. Your property 3 says $Z(G)$ is a ball of some radius, say $r_Z$, about $e$. (You say sphere, but I assume you mean ball, because certainly you need $e in Z(G)$. I will assume the same for property 2.)



Pick any $g in G - Z(G)$. Then property 2 says $C_G(g)$ is a ball of some radius $r > r_e$ about $e$. Take some $h$ in $C_G(g) - Z(G)$ in the interior of this ball. Then $C_G(h)$ is a ball of radius $< r$ about $e$, but $gh=hg$ means $g in C_g(h)$. However $g$ has distance $r$ from $e$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer









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    $begingroup$

    I am reading the question as you are asking if there is a group $G$ and a subgroup $H$ that satisfy the above properties. I haven't read through all of your properties, but it is already impossible with properties 2, 3.



    Namely, say you have a group $G$ which can be identified with $mathbb R^3$. Your property 3 says $Z(G)$ is a ball of some radius, say $r_Z$, about $e$. (You say sphere, but I assume you mean ball, because certainly you need $e in Z(G)$. I will assume the same for property 2.)



    Pick any $g in G - Z(G)$. Then property 2 says $C_G(g)$ is a ball of some radius $r > r_e$ about $e$. Take some $h$ in $C_G(g) - Z(G)$ in the interior of this ball. Then $C_G(h)$ is a ball of radius $< r$ about $e$, but $gh=hg$ means $g in C_g(h)$. However $g$ has distance $r$ from $e$, a contradiction.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      1












      $begingroup$

      I am reading the question as you are asking if there is a group $G$ and a subgroup $H$ that satisfy the above properties. I haven't read through all of your properties, but it is already impossible with properties 2, 3.



      Namely, say you have a group $G$ which can be identified with $mathbb R^3$. Your property 3 says $Z(G)$ is a ball of some radius, say $r_Z$, about $e$. (You say sphere, but I assume you mean ball, because certainly you need $e in Z(G)$. I will assume the same for property 2.)



      Pick any $g in G - Z(G)$. Then property 2 says $C_G(g)$ is a ball of some radius $r > r_e$ about $e$. Take some $h$ in $C_G(g) - Z(G)$ in the interior of this ball. Then $C_G(h)$ is a ball of radius $< r$ about $e$, but $gh=hg$ means $g in C_g(h)$. However $g$ has distance $r$ from $e$, a contradiction.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        I am reading the question as you are asking if there is a group $G$ and a subgroup $H$ that satisfy the above properties. I haven't read through all of your properties, but it is already impossible with properties 2, 3.



        Namely, say you have a group $G$ which can be identified with $mathbb R^3$. Your property 3 says $Z(G)$ is a ball of some radius, say $r_Z$, about $e$. (You say sphere, but I assume you mean ball, because certainly you need $e in Z(G)$. I will assume the same for property 2.)



        Pick any $g in G - Z(G)$. Then property 2 says $C_G(g)$ is a ball of some radius $r > r_e$ about $e$. Take some $h$ in $C_G(g) - Z(G)$ in the interior of this ball. Then $C_G(h)$ is a ball of radius $< r$ about $e$, but $gh=hg$ means $g in C_g(h)$. However $g$ has distance $r$ from $e$, a contradiction.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        I am reading the question as you are asking if there is a group $G$ and a subgroup $H$ that satisfy the above properties. I haven't read through all of your properties, but it is already impossible with properties 2, 3.



        Namely, say you have a group $G$ which can be identified with $mathbb R^3$. Your property 3 says $Z(G)$ is a ball of some radius, say $r_Z$, about $e$. (You say sphere, but I assume you mean ball, because certainly you need $e in Z(G)$. I will assume the same for property 2.)



        Pick any $g in G - Z(G)$. Then property 2 says $C_G(g)$ is a ball of some radius $r > r_e$ about $e$. Take some $h$ in $C_G(g) - Z(G)$ in the interior of this ball. Then $C_G(h)$ is a ball of radius $< r$ about $e$, but $gh=hg$ means $g in C_g(h)$. However $g$ has distance $r$ from $e$, a contradiction.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Mar 25 at 22:23









        KimballKimball

        2,0451029




        2,0451029






























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