how to find the “orientation” of parameterized surface, and use it to setup integral? ...

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how to find the “orientation” of parameterized surface, and use it to setup integral?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Evaluate the inward flux of the vector field $F=<y,-x,z>$ over the surface $S$ of the solid bounded by $z=sqrt{x^2+y^2}$ and $z=3$.Calculate surface integral of point charge located outside the surfacecalculating a surface integral $iintvec{F}cdotvec{n}dA$Surface Integrals, orientation and parametrizations.Calculate surface area of a F using the surface integralVerifying Stokes' Theorem on two intersecting cylindersDefinite Integral $ 4piint_{0}^{1}cosh(t)sqrt{cosh^{2}(t)+sinh^{2}(t)} dt $How to calculate the integral on surface which cannot be expressed in functions easily?How can I find the curl of velocity in spherical coordinates?line intergral problemSurface Integral formed by Paraboloid of revolution and Cylinder












0












$begingroup$


From "Advanced Calculus: Demystified: A Self-teaching Guide", 2007, David Bachman, Example 10-3, page 141:



Let vector field:



$$W = (y,x,z)$$



Let S be the portion of a cylinder parameterized by:



$$psi(theta, z) = (cos theta, sin theta, z)$$
$$0 le theta le frac{pi}{4}$$
$$0 le z le 1$$



The vector $(-1, 0, 0)$ defines an orientation on S at point (1,0,0).



Integral W over the surface S with orientation vector (-1, 0, 0) at point (1,0,0).





For the integral below, why does the parameterization of $psi$ disagree with the specified orientation? and therefore the final result need to be negated?



$$
int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



I can kind of see that if you pick point (1,0,0) and evaluate W at this point, then:



W(1,0,0) = (0,1,0)



Which is basically the unit $vec{j}$ vector.



then, if you take the the cross product of the two tangents vectors of the surface S at the point (1,0,0) then it gives you a normal vector to the surface:



$$begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} = (1,0,0)
$$



Which is basically the unit $vec{i}$ vector at point (1,0,0).



But, they say the orientation of the integral setup is $-vec{i} = (-1, 0, 0)$.
Why?





Continuation of solution from book:



$$int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} (sin theta, cos theta, z) cdot (cos theta, sin theta, 0) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} 2 sin theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} sin 2theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} frac{1}{2} dz $$



$$=frac{1}{2} $$



At this point, they say, orientation of $psi$ disagrees with the specified orientation therefore the correct answer is $-frac{1}{2}$.



how are they settings up the integral such that its orientation disagrees?



S Region: 1/8th of cylinder










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What is the specified orientation?
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 10:29












  • $begingroup$
    they guess an orientation of $vec{N} =(-1, 0, 0)$ normal to surface at point (1,0,0)... which should be specified by the ordering of the integral upper and lower limits? I don't really see why the integral ranges setup in the integral specifies this orientation.. nor do i understand how to set the range up correctly the first time with out needing to flip the sign at the end.
    $endgroup$
    – DiscreteMath
    Mar 26 at 10:31












  • $begingroup$
    The order of the limits of integration is fine (run from lower to upper limit). The only reason you might need to flip the sign is if you want e.g. the inward flux (of the vector field through the surface) but the integral computes the outward flux (or vice versa). See How to find outward-pointing normal vector for surface flux problems? Example problem included. for example.
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 11:00


















0












$begingroup$


From "Advanced Calculus: Demystified: A Self-teaching Guide", 2007, David Bachman, Example 10-3, page 141:



Let vector field:



$$W = (y,x,z)$$



Let S be the portion of a cylinder parameterized by:



$$psi(theta, z) = (cos theta, sin theta, z)$$
$$0 le theta le frac{pi}{4}$$
$$0 le z le 1$$



The vector $(-1, 0, 0)$ defines an orientation on S at point (1,0,0).



Integral W over the surface S with orientation vector (-1, 0, 0) at point (1,0,0).





For the integral below, why does the parameterization of $psi$ disagree with the specified orientation? and therefore the final result need to be negated?



$$
int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



I can kind of see that if you pick point (1,0,0) and evaluate W at this point, then:



W(1,0,0) = (0,1,0)



Which is basically the unit $vec{j}$ vector.



then, if you take the the cross product of the two tangents vectors of the surface S at the point (1,0,0) then it gives you a normal vector to the surface:



$$begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} = (1,0,0)
$$



Which is basically the unit $vec{i}$ vector at point (1,0,0).



But, they say the orientation of the integral setup is $-vec{i} = (-1, 0, 0)$.
Why?





Continuation of solution from book:



$$int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} (sin theta, cos theta, z) cdot (cos theta, sin theta, 0) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} 2 sin theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} sin 2theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} frac{1}{2} dz $$



$$=frac{1}{2} $$



At this point, they say, orientation of $psi$ disagrees with the specified orientation therefore the correct answer is $-frac{1}{2}$.



how are they settings up the integral such that its orientation disagrees?



S Region: 1/8th of cylinder










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What is the specified orientation?
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 10:29












  • $begingroup$
    they guess an orientation of $vec{N} =(-1, 0, 0)$ normal to surface at point (1,0,0)... which should be specified by the ordering of the integral upper and lower limits? I don't really see why the integral ranges setup in the integral specifies this orientation.. nor do i understand how to set the range up correctly the first time with out needing to flip the sign at the end.
    $endgroup$
    – DiscreteMath
    Mar 26 at 10:31












  • $begingroup$
    The order of the limits of integration is fine (run from lower to upper limit). The only reason you might need to flip the sign is if you want e.g. the inward flux (of the vector field through the surface) but the integral computes the outward flux (or vice versa). See How to find outward-pointing normal vector for surface flux problems? Example problem included. for example.
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 11:00
















0












0








0





$begingroup$


From "Advanced Calculus: Demystified: A Self-teaching Guide", 2007, David Bachman, Example 10-3, page 141:



Let vector field:



$$W = (y,x,z)$$



Let S be the portion of a cylinder parameterized by:



$$psi(theta, z) = (cos theta, sin theta, z)$$
$$0 le theta le frac{pi}{4}$$
$$0 le z le 1$$



The vector $(-1, 0, 0)$ defines an orientation on S at point (1,0,0).



Integral W over the surface S with orientation vector (-1, 0, 0) at point (1,0,0).





For the integral below, why does the parameterization of $psi$ disagree with the specified orientation? and therefore the final result need to be negated?



$$
int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



I can kind of see that if you pick point (1,0,0) and evaluate W at this point, then:



W(1,0,0) = (0,1,0)



Which is basically the unit $vec{j}$ vector.



then, if you take the the cross product of the two tangents vectors of the surface S at the point (1,0,0) then it gives you a normal vector to the surface:



$$begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} = (1,0,0)
$$



Which is basically the unit $vec{i}$ vector at point (1,0,0).



But, they say the orientation of the integral setup is $-vec{i} = (-1, 0, 0)$.
Why?





Continuation of solution from book:



$$int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} (sin theta, cos theta, z) cdot (cos theta, sin theta, 0) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} 2 sin theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} sin 2theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} frac{1}{2} dz $$



$$=frac{1}{2} $$



At this point, they say, orientation of $psi$ disagrees with the specified orientation therefore the correct answer is $-frac{1}{2}$.



how are they settings up the integral such that its orientation disagrees?



S Region: 1/8th of cylinder










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




From "Advanced Calculus: Demystified: A Self-teaching Guide", 2007, David Bachman, Example 10-3, page 141:



Let vector field:



$$W = (y,x,z)$$



Let S be the portion of a cylinder parameterized by:



$$psi(theta, z) = (cos theta, sin theta, z)$$
$$0 le theta le frac{pi}{4}$$
$$0 le z le 1$$



The vector $(-1, 0, 0)$ defines an orientation on S at point (1,0,0).



Integral W over the surface S with orientation vector (-1, 0, 0) at point (1,0,0).





For the integral below, why does the parameterization of $psi$ disagree with the specified orientation? and therefore the final result need to be negated?



$$
int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



I can kind of see that if you pick point (1,0,0) and evaluate W at this point, then:



W(1,0,0) = (0,1,0)



Which is basically the unit $vec{j}$ vector.



then, if you take the the cross product of the two tangents vectors of the surface S at the point (1,0,0) then it gives you a normal vector to the surface:



$$begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} = (1,0,0)
$$



Which is basically the unit $vec{i}$ vector at point (1,0,0).



But, they say the orientation of the integral setup is $-vec{i} = (-1, 0, 0)$.
Why?





Continuation of solution from book:



$$int_{S} textbf{W} cdot dtextbf{s} = int^{1}_0 int^{frac{pi}{4}}_{0} textbf{W}(psi(theta,z)) cdot left(begin{vmatrix}
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{theta}} times
frac{partial{psi}}{partial{z}}
end{vmatrix} right) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} (sin theta, cos theta, z) cdot (cos theta, sin theta, 0) dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} 2 sin theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} int_{0}^{frac{pi}{4}} sin 2theta cos theta dtheta dz$$



$$=int_{1}^{0} frac{1}{2} dz $$



$$=frac{1}{2} $$



At this point, they say, orientation of $psi$ disagrees with the specified orientation therefore the correct answer is $-frac{1}{2}$.



how are they settings up the integral such that its orientation disagrees?



S Region: 1/8th of cylinder







multivariable-calculus






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 26 at 16:10







DiscreteMath

















asked Mar 26 at 10:27









DiscreteMathDiscreteMath

677




677












  • $begingroup$
    What is the specified orientation?
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 10:29












  • $begingroup$
    they guess an orientation of $vec{N} =(-1, 0, 0)$ normal to surface at point (1,0,0)... which should be specified by the ordering of the integral upper and lower limits? I don't really see why the integral ranges setup in the integral specifies this orientation.. nor do i understand how to set the range up correctly the first time with out needing to flip the sign at the end.
    $endgroup$
    – DiscreteMath
    Mar 26 at 10:31












  • $begingroup$
    The order of the limits of integration is fine (run from lower to upper limit). The only reason you might need to flip the sign is if you want e.g. the inward flux (of the vector field through the surface) but the integral computes the outward flux (or vice versa). See How to find outward-pointing normal vector for surface flux problems? Example problem included. for example.
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 11:00




















  • $begingroup$
    What is the specified orientation?
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 10:29












  • $begingroup$
    they guess an orientation of $vec{N} =(-1, 0, 0)$ normal to surface at point (1,0,0)... which should be specified by the ordering of the integral upper and lower limits? I don't really see why the integral ranges setup in the integral specifies this orientation.. nor do i understand how to set the range up correctly the first time with out needing to flip the sign at the end.
    $endgroup$
    – DiscreteMath
    Mar 26 at 10:31












  • $begingroup$
    The order of the limits of integration is fine (run from lower to upper limit). The only reason you might need to flip the sign is if you want e.g. the inward flux (of the vector field through the surface) but the integral computes the outward flux (or vice versa). See How to find outward-pointing normal vector for surface flux problems? Example problem included. for example.
    $endgroup$
    – StackTD
    Mar 26 at 11:00


















$begingroup$
What is the specified orientation?
$endgroup$
– StackTD
Mar 26 at 10:29






$begingroup$
What is the specified orientation?
$endgroup$
– StackTD
Mar 26 at 10:29














$begingroup$
they guess an orientation of $vec{N} =(-1, 0, 0)$ normal to surface at point (1,0,0)... which should be specified by the ordering of the integral upper and lower limits? I don't really see why the integral ranges setup in the integral specifies this orientation.. nor do i understand how to set the range up correctly the first time with out needing to flip the sign at the end.
$endgroup$
– DiscreteMath
Mar 26 at 10:31






$begingroup$
they guess an orientation of $vec{N} =(-1, 0, 0)$ normal to surface at point (1,0,0)... which should be specified by the ordering of the integral upper and lower limits? I don't really see why the integral ranges setup in the integral specifies this orientation.. nor do i understand how to set the range up correctly the first time with out needing to flip the sign at the end.
$endgroup$
– DiscreteMath
Mar 26 at 10:31














$begingroup$
The order of the limits of integration is fine (run from lower to upper limit). The only reason you might need to flip the sign is if you want e.g. the inward flux (of the vector field through the surface) but the integral computes the outward flux (or vice versa). See How to find outward-pointing normal vector for surface flux problems? Example problem included. for example.
$endgroup$
– StackTD
Mar 26 at 11:00






$begingroup$
The order of the limits of integration is fine (run from lower to upper limit). The only reason you might need to flip the sign is if you want e.g. the inward flux (of the vector field through the surface) but the integral computes the outward flux (or vice versa). See How to find outward-pointing normal vector for surface flux problems? Example problem included. for example.
$endgroup$
– StackTD
Mar 26 at 11:00












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















0












$begingroup$

For a surface integral, the orientation is chosen by the person setting up the problem to represents the direction in which the flux of the vector field needs to pass through the surface for the resulting surface integral to be positive in value.



For a given surface, there are generally, two choice for the orientation vectors:




(1) normal vectors on "top" of the surface, and



(2) normal vectors on the "bottom" of the surface.




For some surfaces, the orientation could also be interpreted as a choice between:




(1) normal vectors on the "inner surface"



(2) normal vectors on the "outer surface"




If the cross product in the surface integral disagree with this chosen orientation for a given surface, then it is necessary to negate the surface integral to match the orientation. (This is just the rule.)



If the surface integral problem says, assume the induced orientation for the surface integral, then, this just means that we will choose the orientation vector to be the same direction as the cross product in the surface integral. (thus, no sign flipping required in this case, we just need to obtain the orientation vector from the cross product in the surface integral to make sense of the sign of the resultant integral value.)






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    1 Answer
    1






    active

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    0












    $begingroup$

    For a surface integral, the orientation is chosen by the person setting up the problem to represents the direction in which the flux of the vector field needs to pass through the surface for the resulting surface integral to be positive in value.



    For a given surface, there are generally, two choice for the orientation vectors:




    (1) normal vectors on "top" of the surface, and



    (2) normal vectors on the "bottom" of the surface.




    For some surfaces, the orientation could also be interpreted as a choice between:




    (1) normal vectors on the "inner surface"



    (2) normal vectors on the "outer surface"




    If the cross product in the surface integral disagree with this chosen orientation for a given surface, then it is necessary to negate the surface integral to match the orientation. (This is just the rule.)



    If the surface integral problem says, assume the induced orientation for the surface integral, then, this just means that we will choose the orientation vector to be the same direction as the cross product in the surface integral. (thus, no sign flipping required in this case, we just need to obtain the orientation vector from the cross product in the surface integral to make sense of the sign of the resultant integral value.)






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      0












      $begingroup$

      For a surface integral, the orientation is chosen by the person setting up the problem to represents the direction in which the flux of the vector field needs to pass through the surface for the resulting surface integral to be positive in value.



      For a given surface, there are generally, two choice for the orientation vectors:




      (1) normal vectors on "top" of the surface, and



      (2) normal vectors on the "bottom" of the surface.




      For some surfaces, the orientation could also be interpreted as a choice between:




      (1) normal vectors on the "inner surface"



      (2) normal vectors on the "outer surface"




      If the cross product in the surface integral disagree with this chosen orientation for a given surface, then it is necessary to negate the surface integral to match the orientation. (This is just the rule.)



      If the surface integral problem says, assume the induced orientation for the surface integral, then, this just means that we will choose the orientation vector to be the same direction as the cross product in the surface integral. (thus, no sign flipping required in this case, we just need to obtain the orientation vector from the cross product in the surface integral to make sense of the sign of the resultant integral value.)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        0












        0








        0





        $begingroup$

        For a surface integral, the orientation is chosen by the person setting up the problem to represents the direction in which the flux of the vector field needs to pass through the surface for the resulting surface integral to be positive in value.



        For a given surface, there are generally, two choice for the orientation vectors:




        (1) normal vectors on "top" of the surface, and



        (2) normal vectors on the "bottom" of the surface.




        For some surfaces, the orientation could also be interpreted as a choice between:




        (1) normal vectors on the "inner surface"



        (2) normal vectors on the "outer surface"




        If the cross product in the surface integral disagree with this chosen orientation for a given surface, then it is necessary to negate the surface integral to match the orientation. (This is just the rule.)



        If the surface integral problem says, assume the induced orientation for the surface integral, then, this just means that we will choose the orientation vector to be the same direction as the cross product in the surface integral. (thus, no sign flipping required in this case, we just need to obtain the orientation vector from the cross product in the surface integral to make sense of the sign of the resultant integral value.)






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        For a surface integral, the orientation is chosen by the person setting up the problem to represents the direction in which the flux of the vector field needs to pass through the surface for the resulting surface integral to be positive in value.



        For a given surface, there are generally, two choice for the orientation vectors:




        (1) normal vectors on "top" of the surface, and



        (2) normal vectors on the "bottom" of the surface.




        For some surfaces, the orientation could also be interpreted as a choice between:




        (1) normal vectors on the "inner surface"



        (2) normal vectors on the "outer surface"




        If the cross product in the surface integral disagree with this chosen orientation for a given surface, then it is necessary to negate the surface integral to match the orientation. (This is just the rule.)



        If the surface integral problem says, assume the induced orientation for the surface integral, then, this just means that we will choose the orientation vector to be the same direction as the cross product in the surface integral. (thus, no sign flipping required in this case, we just need to obtain the orientation vector from the cross product in the surface integral to make sense of the sign of the resultant integral value.)







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Mar 26 at 17:47

























        answered Mar 26 at 17:33









        DiscreteMathDiscreteMath

        677




        677






























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