How many upper sets in this decomposition of finite posetsWhat's the cell structure of K(Z/nZ, 1)? Does it...
How many upper sets in this decomposition of finite posets
What's the cell structure of K(Z/nZ, 1)? Does it let me sum this divergent series? What about other finite groups?Computation of the Euler characteristic of a specific real varietyHigher Euler characteristics (possible generalizations)Abelian covers of compact Kahler manifoldsProperties of a specific antichain of a lattice formed by the cartesian product of finite ordered setsGeneralisation of the quantum exterior algebraTopology of manifolds and transition functionsIs the Euler characteristic of a subfactor planar algebra, nonzero?Is an Eulerian subgroup lattice boolean?Maximum genus of an abstract “cycle complex”
$begingroup$
Let $X$ be a finite poset.
If
$$X = X_1 cup X_2$$
where $X_1$ and $X_2$ are strict upper sets, then a lot of properties of $X$ can be inferred from the smaller posets $X_1, X_2$ and $X_1cap X_2$ (see background below). We can now subdivide these 3 posets in the same way. If we keep subdividing these posets, then we will eventually end up with "trivial" posets, which for my purposes is when it only has 1 minimal element.
My question is: If we keep subdividing $X$ into 2 strict upper sets and their intersection, until we reach "trivial" posets, how many
distinct (as sets) posets will we have encountered?
I'm interested in how this value grows as a function of the number of points of $X$, with the best choice of subdivision on the worst poset $X$. Is it polynomial? Can you give an example where it is exponential?
As you can see, in the background below, I make a very specific choice of subdivision. An answer to the question for only this subdivision scheme is also very helpful.
Thanks for your help!
Some Background:
I will write $X_{text{min}}$ for the set of minimal elements of $X$. I will also write $uparrow Y$ for the upper set of $Y subseteq X$.
The Euler characteristic of $X$ is the alternating sum
$$chi(X) = sum_{n=0}^infty (-1)^n #C_n$$
where $#C_n$ is the number of chains of length $n$ in $X$.
Alternatively, it is the Euler characteristic of $X$ seen as a topological space. (ignore this if unfamiliar).
I want to compute the Euler characteristic (and many similar concepts) of a poset using the following 3 properties:
$chi(A cup B) = chi(A) + chi(B) - chi(A cap B) $ if $A$ and $B$ are upper sets.- If $X_{text{min}}$ has only 1 element, then $chi(X) = 1$
$chi(emptyset) = 0$
Propertiy 1 can be seen as a recursion, while property 2 and 3 can serve as a base case for this recursion. This leads to the following algorithm (pseudocode):
def euler_characteristic(X):
if len(X_min) == 1:
return 1
elif len(X_min) == 0:
return 0
else:
# subdivide X_min into 2 roughly equal disjoint parts:
middle = len(X_min)//2
I = X_min[0:middle]
J = X_min[middle:end]
return euler_characteristic(↑I)
+ euler_characteristic(↑J)
- euler_characteristic(↑I ∩ ↑J)
Actual working sage code can be found and ran here.
One could ask, how many times does this code call the function euler_characteristic
as a function of $n$ asymptotically in the worst case. Then the answer is $Theta(3^n)$ as this example shows.
However, in that example, the function often gets called with the same input. We could just store inputs and outputs that we already calculated and first do a look up there. Then the above example is no longer exponential.
Alternative formulation of the question: How many times does the function get called on distinct inputs?
Some more background:
The above discussion with the Euler characteristic is just one (simple) example of where this technique could be used. In algebraic topology, there are more invariants of finite topological spaces which satisfy similar properties that could lead to a similar algorithm. For example, for the homology groups and Betti numbers we have the Mayer-Vietoris sequence, while for the fundamental group(oid) we have the Seifert–van Kampen theorem.
In this pre-print article, the idea is introduced for Betti numbers. Watch out, it contains mistakes (for example, it claims the amount of calls is polynomial in general, which it isn't as my example shows) and is incomplete. It is useful tough, to get a good idea of what my question is about.
co.combinatorics at.algebraic-topology asymptotics
$endgroup$
migrated from math.stackexchange.com 17 hours ago
This question came from our site for people studying math at any level and professionals in related fields.
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Let $X$ be a finite poset.
If
$$X = X_1 cup X_2$$
where $X_1$ and $X_2$ are strict upper sets, then a lot of properties of $X$ can be inferred from the smaller posets $X_1, X_2$ and $X_1cap X_2$ (see background below). We can now subdivide these 3 posets in the same way. If we keep subdividing these posets, then we will eventually end up with "trivial" posets, which for my purposes is when it only has 1 minimal element.
My question is: If we keep subdividing $X$ into 2 strict upper sets and their intersection, until we reach "trivial" posets, how many
distinct (as sets) posets will we have encountered?
I'm interested in how this value grows as a function of the number of points of $X$, with the best choice of subdivision on the worst poset $X$. Is it polynomial? Can you give an example where it is exponential?
As you can see, in the background below, I make a very specific choice of subdivision. An answer to the question for only this subdivision scheme is also very helpful.
Thanks for your help!
Some Background:
I will write $X_{text{min}}$ for the set of minimal elements of $X$. I will also write $uparrow Y$ for the upper set of $Y subseteq X$.
The Euler characteristic of $X$ is the alternating sum
$$chi(X) = sum_{n=0}^infty (-1)^n #C_n$$
where $#C_n$ is the number of chains of length $n$ in $X$.
Alternatively, it is the Euler characteristic of $X$ seen as a topological space. (ignore this if unfamiliar).
I want to compute the Euler characteristic (and many similar concepts) of a poset using the following 3 properties:
$chi(A cup B) = chi(A) + chi(B) - chi(A cap B) $ if $A$ and $B$ are upper sets.- If $X_{text{min}}$ has only 1 element, then $chi(X) = 1$
$chi(emptyset) = 0$
Propertiy 1 can be seen as a recursion, while property 2 and 3 can serve as a base case for this recursion. This leads to the following algorithm (pseudocode):
def euler_characteristic(X):
if len(X_min) == 1:
return 1
elif len(X_min) == 0:
return 0
else:
# subdivide X_min into 2 roughly equal disjoint parts:
middle = len(X_min)//2
I = X_min[0:middle]
J = X_min[middle:end]
return euler_characteristic(↑I)
+ euler_characteristic(↑J)
- euler_characteristic(↑I ∩ ↑J)
Actual working sage code can be found and ran here.
One could ask, how many times does this code call the function euler_characteristic
as a function of $n$ asymptotically in the worst case. Then the answer is $Theta(3^n)$ as this example shows.
However, in that example, the function often gets called with the same input. We could just store inputs and outputs that we already calculated and first do a look up there. Then the above example is no longer exponential.
Alternative formulation of the question: How many times does the function get called on distinct inputs?
Some more background:
The above discussion with the Euler characteristic is just one (simple) example of where this technique could be used. In algebraic topology, there are more invariants of finite topological spaces which satisfy similar properties that could lead to a similar algorithm. For example, for the homology groups and Betti numbers we have the Mayer-Vietoris sequence, while for the fundamental group(oid) we have the Seifert–van Kampen theorem.
In this pre-print article, the idea is introduced for Betti numbers. Watch out, it contains mistakes (for example, it claims the amount of calls is polynomial in general, which it isn't as my example shows) and is incomplete. It is useful tough, to get a good idea of what my question is about.
co.combinatorics at.algebraic-topology asymptotics
$endgroup$
migrated from math.stackexchange.com 17 hours ago
This question came from our site for people studying math at any level and professionals in related fields.
3
$begingroup$
Just as an aside, you can speed up your code a bit by usingif signature in visited
instead ofif signature in visited.keys()
so that it hashes the input instead of looking through the whole list. This can make a big difference if there are a very large number of evaluations.
$endgroup$
– Jair Taylor
Mar 13 at 16:07
$begingroup$
Are you asking how many non-isomorphic upper ideals a poset with $n$ elements may have? I'm pretty sure that this number is exponential is $n$, since for a rectangle poset (= product of two chains) the upper ideals are in bijection with lattice paths counted by a binomial coefficient (and most of them are non-isomorphic -- in the sense that symmetry can only take a constant factor away from the asymptotics).
$endgroup$
– darij grinberg
Mar 13 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@JairTaylor Thanks for the tip!
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:16
$begingroup$
@darijgrinberg No, I'm asking about (set theoretically) distinct upper sets. There is no reasoning with isomorphy here. This makes it of course even worse than if I was asking about non-isomorphic upper sets. But I am not asking about all of them. A lot of upper sets will never be reached by this recursion. The difficulty is counting the ones we do reach, not how many we have in total (which is of course O(2^n))
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:22
$begingroup$
If you just want to compute the Euler characteristic quickly, then it is just one more than the Möbius function $mu_{hat{P}}(hat{0},hat{1})$, where $hat{P}$ is $P$ with a minimal element $hat{0}$ and maximal element $hat{1}$ adjoined. This can be computed quickly from the defining recurrence for $mu$. If you want such information as the Betti numbers, then there are several tools like discrete Morse theory and lexicographic shellability available.
$endgroup$
– Richard Stanley
17 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Let $X$ be a finite poset.
If
$$X = X_1 cup X_2$$
where $X_1$ and $X_2$ are strict upper sets, then a lot of properties of $X$ can be inferred from the smaller posets $X_1, X_2$ and $X_1cap X_2$ (see background below). We can now subdivide these 3 posets in the same way. If we keep subdividing these posets, then we will eventually end up with "trivial" posets, which for my purposes is when it only has 1 minimal element.
My question is: If we keep subdividing $X$ into 2 strict upper sets and their intersection, until we reach "trivial" posets, how many
distinct (as sets) posets will we have encountered?
I'm interested in how this value grows as a function of the number of points of $X$, with the best choice of subdivision on the worst poset $X$. Is it polynomial? Can you give an example where it is exponential?
As you can see, in the background below, I make a very specific choice of subdivision. An answer to the question for only this subdivision scheme is also very helpful.
Thanks for your help!
Some Background:
I will write $X_{text{min}}$ for the set of minimal elements of $X$. I will also write $uparrow Y$ for the upper set of $Y subseteq X$.
The Euler characteristic of $X$ is the alternating sum
$$chi(X) = sum_{n=0}^infty (-1)^n #C_n$$
where $#C_n$ is the number of chains of length $n$ in $X$.
Alternatively, it is the Euler characteristic of $X$ seen as a topological space. (ignore this if unfamiliar).
I want to compute the Euler characteristic (and many similar concepts) of a poset using the following 3 properties:
$chi(A cup B) = chi(A) + chi(B) - chi(A cap B) $ if $A$ and $B$ are upper sets.- If $X_{text{min}}$ has only 1 element, then $chi(X) = 1$
$chi(emptyset) = 0$
Propertiy 1 can be seen as a recursion, while property 2 and 3 can serve as a base case for this recursion. This leads to the following algorithm (pseudocode):
def euler_characteristic(X):
if len(X_min) == 1:
return 1
elif len(X_min) == 0:
return 0
else:
# subdivide X_min into 2 roughly equal disjoint parts:
middle = len(X_min)//2
I = X_min[0:middle]
J = X_min[middle:end]
return euler_characteristic(↑I)
+ euler_characteristic(↑J)
- euler_characteristic(↑I ∩ ↑J)
Actual working sage code can be found and ran here.
One could ask, how many times does this code call the function euler_characteristic
as a function of $n$ asymptotically in the worst case. Then the answer is $Theta(3^n)$ as this example shows.
However, in that example, the function often gets called with the same input. We could just store inputs and outputs that we already calculated and first do a look up there. Then the above example is no longer exponential.
Alternative formulation of the question: How many times does the function get called on distinct inputs?
Some more background:
The above discussion with the Euler characteristic is just one (simple) example of where this technique could be used. In algebraic topology, there are more invariants of finite topological spaces which satisfy similar properties that could lead to a similar algorithm. For example, for the homology groups and Betti numbers we have the Mayer-Vietoris sequence, while for the fundamental group(oid) we have the Seifert–van Kampen theorem.
In this pre-print article, the idea is introduced for Betti numbers. Watch out, it contains mistakes (for example, it claims the amount of calls is polynomial in general, which it isn't as my example shows) and is incomplete. It is useful tough, to get a good idea of what my question is about.
co.combinatorics at.algebraic-topology asymptotics
$endgroup$
Let $X$ be a finite poset.
If
$$X = X_1 cup X_2$$
where $X_1$ and $X_2$ are strict upper sets, then a lot of properties of $X$ can be inferred from the smaller posets $X_1, X_2$ and $X_1cap X_2$ (see background below). We can now subdivide these 3 posets in the same way. If we keep subdividing these posets, then we will eventually end up with "trivial" posets, which for my purposes is when it only has 1 minimal element.
My question is: If we keep subdividing $X$ into 2 strict upper sets and their intersection, until we reach "trivial" posets, how many
distinct (as sets) posets will we have encountered?
I'm interested in how this value grows as a function of the number of points of $X$, with the best choice of subdivision on the worst poset $X$. Is it polynomial? Can you give an example where it is exponential?
As you can see, in the background below, I make a very specific choice of subdivision. An answer to the question for only this subdivision scheme is also very helpful.
Thanks for your help!
Some Background:
I will write $X_{text{min}}$ for the set of minimal elements of $X$. I will also write $uparrow Y$ for the upper set of $Y subseteq X$.
The Euler characteristic of $X$ is the alternating sum
$$chi(X) = sum_{n=0}^infty (-1)^n #C_n$$
where $#C_n$ is the number of chains of length $n$ in $X$.
Alternatively, it is the Euler characteristic of $X$ seen as a topological space. (ignore this if unfamiliar).
I want to compute the Euler characteristic (and many similar concepts) of a poset using the following 3 properties:
$chi(A cup B) = chi(A) + chi(B) - chi(A cap B) $ if $A$ and $B$ are upper sets.- If $X_{text{min}}$ has only 1 element, then $chi(X) = 1$
$chi(emptyset) = 0$
Propertiy 1 can be seen as a recursion, while property 2 and 3 can serve as a base case for this recursion. This leads to the following algorithm (pseudocode):
def euler_characteristic(X):
if len(X_min) == 1:
return 1
elif len(X_min) == 0:
return 0
else:
# subdivide X_min into 2 roughly equal disjoint parts:
middle = len(X_min)//2
I = X_min[0:middle]
J = X_min[middle:end]
return euler_characteristic(↑I)
+ euler_characteristic(↑J)
- euler_characteristic(↑I ∩ ↑J)
Actual working sage code can be found and ran here.
One could ask, how many times does this code call the function euler_characteristic
as a function of $n$ asymptotically in the worst case. Then the answer is $Theta(3^n)$ as this example shows.
However, in that example, the function often gets called with the same input. We could just store inputs and outputs that we already calculated and first do a look up there. Then the above example is no longer exponential.
Alternative formulation of the question: How many times does the function get called on distinct inputs?
Some more background:
The above discussion with the Euler characteristic is just one (simple) example of where this technique could be used. In algebraic topology, there are more invariants of finite topological spaces which satisfy similar properties that could lead to a similar algorithm. For example, for the homology groups and Betti numbers we have the Mayer-Vietoris sequence, while for the fundamental group(oid) we have the Seifert–van Kampen theorem.
In this pre-print article, the idea is introduced for Betti numbers. Watch out, it contains mistakes (for example, it claims the amount of calls is polynomial in general, which it isn't as my example shows) and is incomplete. It is useful tough, to get a good idea of what my question is about.
co.combinatorics at.algebraic-topology asymptotics
co.combinatorics at.algebraic-topology asymptotics
asked Mar 13 at 11:15
Jens RendersJens Renders
1614
1614
migrated from math.stackexchange.com 17 hours ago
This question came from our site for people studying math at any level and professionals in related fields.
migrated from math.stackexchange.com 17 hours ago
This question came from our site for people studying math at any level and professionals in related fields.
3
$begingroup$
Just as an aside, you can speed up your code a bit by usingif signature in visited
instead ofif signature in visited.keys()
so that it hashes the input instead of looking through the whole list. This can make a big difference if there are a very large number of evaluations.
$endgroup$
– Jair Taylor
Mar 13 at 16:07
$begingroup$
Are you asking how many non-isomorphic upper ideals a poset with $n$ elements may have? I'm pretty sure that this number is exponential is $n$, since for a rectangle poset (= product of two chains) the upper ideals are in bijection with lattice paths counted by a binomial coefficient (and most of them are non-isomorphic -- in the sense that symmetry can only take a constant factor away from the asymptotics).
$endgroup$
– darij grinberg
Mar 13 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@JairTaylor Thanks for the tip!
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:16
$begingroup$
@darijgrinberg No, I'm asking about (set theoretically) distinct upper sets. There is no reasoning with isomorphy here. This makes it of course even worse than if I was asking about non-isomorphic upper sets. But I am not asking about all of them. A lot of upper sets will never be reached by this recursion. The difficulty is counting the ones we do reach, not how many we have in total (which is of course O(2^n))
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:22
$begingroup$
If you just want to compute the Euler characteristic quickly, then it is just one more than the Möbius function $mu_{hat{P}}(hat{0},hat{1})$, where $hat{P}$ is $P$ with a minimal element $hat{0}$ and maximal element $hat{1}$ adjoined. This can be computed quickly from the defining recurrence for $mu$. If you want such information as the Betti numbers, then there are several tools like discrete Morse theory and lexicographic shellability available.
$endgroup$
– Richard Stanley
17 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3
$begingroup$
Just as an aside, you can speed up your code a bit by usingif signature in visited
instead ofif signature in visited.keys()
so that it hashes the input instead of looking through the whole list. This can make a big difference if there are a very large number of evaluations.
$endgroup$
– Jair Taylor
Mar 13 at 16:07
$begingroup$
Are you asking how many non-isomorphic upper ideals a poset with $n$ elements may have? I'm pretty sure that this number is exponential is $n$, since for a rectangle poset (= product of two chains) the upper ideals are in bijection with lattice paths counted by a binomial coefficient (and most of them are non-isomorphic -- in the sense that symmetry can only take a constant factor away from the asymptotics).
$endgroup$
– darij grinberg
Mar 13 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@JairTaylor Thanks for the tip!
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:16
$begingroup$
@darijgrinberg No, I'm asking about (set theoretically) distinct upper sets. There is no reasoning with isomorphy here. This makes it of course even worse than if I was asking about non-isomorphic upper sets. But I am not asking about all of them. A lot of upper sets will never be reached by this recursion. The difficulty is counting the ones we do reach, not how many we have in total (which is of course O(2^n))
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:22
$begingroup$
If you just want to compute the Euler characteristic quickly, then it is just one more than the Möbius function $mu_{hat{P}}(hat{0},hat{1})$, where $hat{P}$ is $P$ with a minimal element $hat{0}$ and maximal element $hat{1}$ adjoined. This can be computed quickly from the defining recurrence for $mu$. If you want such information as the Betti numbers, then there are several tools like discrete Morse theory and lexicographic shellability available.
$endgroup$
– Richard Stanley
17 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
Just as an aside, you can speed up your code a bit by using
if signature in visited
instead of if signature in visited.keys()
so that it hashes the input instead of looking through the whole list. This can make a big difference if there are a very large number of evaluations.$endgroup$
– Jair Taylor
Mar 13 at 16:07
$begingroup$
Just as an aside, you can speed up your code a bit by using
if signature in visited
instead of if signature in visited.keys()
so that it hashes the input instead of looking through the whole list. This can make a big difference if there are a very large number of evaluations.$endgroup$
– Jair Taylor
Mar 13 at 16:07
$begingroup$
Are you asking how many non-isomorphic upper ideals a poset with $n$ elements may have? I'm pretty sure that this number is exponential is $n$, since for a rectangle poset (= product of two chains) the upper ideals are in bijection with lattice paths counted by a binomial coefficient (and most of them are non-isomorphic -- in the sense that symmetry can only take a constant factor away from the asymptotics).
$endgroup$
– darij grinberg
Mar 13 at 16:10
$begingroup$
Are you asking how many non-isomorphic upper ideals a poset with $n$ elements may have? I'm pretty sure that this number is exponential is $n$, since for a rectangle poset (= product of two chains) the upper ideals are in bijection with lattice paths counted by a binomial coefficient (and most of them are non-isomorphic -- in the sense that symmetry can only take a constant factor away from the asymptotics).
$endgroup$
– darij grinberg
Mar 13 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@JairTaylor Thanks for the tip!
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:16
$begingroup$
@JairTaylor Thanks for the tip!
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:16
$begingroup$
@darijgrinberg No, I'm asking about (set theoretically) distinct upper sets. There is no reasoning with isomorphy here. This makes it of course even worse than if I was asking about non-isomorphic upper sets. But I am not asking about all of them. A lot of upper sets will never be reached by this recursion. The difficulty is counting the ones we do reach, not how many we have in total (which is of course O(2^n))
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:22
$begingroup$
@darijgrinberg No, I'm asking about (set theoretically) distinct upper sets. There is no reasoning with isomorphy here. This makes it of course even worse than if I was asking about non-isomorphic upper sets. But I am not asking about all of them. A lot of upper sets will never be reached by this recursion. The difficulty is counting the ones we do reach, not how many we have in total (which is of course O(2^n))
$endgroup$
– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:22
$begingroup$
If you just want to compute the Euler characteristic quickly, then it is just one more than the Möbius function $mu_{hat{P}}(hat{0},hat{1})$, where $hat{P}$ is $P$ with a minimal element $hat{0}$ and maximal element $hat{1}$ adjoined. This can be computed quickly from the defining recurrence for $mu$. If you want such information as the Betti numbers, then there are several tools like discrete Morse theory and lexicographic shellability available.
$endgroup$
– Richard Stanley
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you just want to compute the Euler characteristic quickly, then it is just one more than the Möbius function $mu_{hat{P}}(hat{0},hat{1})$, where $hat{P}$ is $P$ with a minimal element $hat{0}$ and maximal element $hat{1}$ adjoined. This can be computed quickly from the defining recurrence for $mu$. If you want such information as the Betti numbers, then there are several tools like discrete Morse theory and lexicographic shellability available.
$endgroup$
– Richard Stanley
17 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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3
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Just as an aside, you can speed up your code a bit by using
if signature in visited
instead ofif signature in visited.keys()
so that it hashes the input instead of looking through the whole list. This can make a big difference if there are a very large number of evaluations.$endgroup$
– Jair Taylor
Mar 13 at 16:07
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Are you asking how many non-isomorphic upper ideals a poset with $n$ elements may have? I'm pretty sure that this number is exponential is $n$, since for a rectangle poset (= product of two chains) the upper ideals are in bijection with lattice paths counted by a binomial coefficient (and most of them are non-isomorphic -- in the sense that symmetry can only take a constant factor away from the asymptotics).
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– darij grinberg
Mar 13 at 16:10
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@JairTaylor Thanks for the tip!
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– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:16
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@darijgrinberg No, I'm asking about (set theoretically) distinct upper sets. There is no reasoning with isomorphy here. This makes it of course even worse than if I was asking about non-isomorphic upper sets. But I am not asking about all of them. A lot of upper sets will never be reached by this recursion. The difficulty is counting the ones we do reach, not how many we have in total (which is of course O(2^n))
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– Jens Renders
Mar 13 at 16:22
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If you just want to compute the Euler characteristic quickly, then it is just one more than the Möbius function $mu_{hat{P}}(hat{0},hat{1})$, where $hat{P}$ is $P$ with a minimal element $hat{0}$ and maximal element $hat{1}$ adjoined. This can be computed quickly from the defining recurrence for $mu$. If you want such information as the Betti numbers, then there are several tools like discrete Morse theory and lexicographic shellability available.
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– Richard Stanley
17 hours ago