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When do the endomorphisms of a structure not form a natural semi-group?


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1












$begingroup$


Consider a copy of $mathbb{Z}$



This forms a group when equipped with the "+" operator



Let us consider now $text{End}(mathbb{Z},+) $ the set of endomorphisms that preserve the additive structure, these endomorphisms are functions and have an associative structure that they "fit" into, namely



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +), times ) $$



Forms a set with an associative operator.



We can go further and look at the "closure" of



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +) - lbrace (x rightarrow 0*x) rbrace, times ) $$



By defining inverses for each of the endomorphisms and this set is equivalent to $mathbb{Q} - lbrace 0 rbrace $.



What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.



Exponentiation is neither associative nor commutative.



Why abstractly is this happening? For example if I have some group G and I look at



$$ G rightarrow text{End}(G) rightarrow text{End}^2 (G) rightarrow ...
$$



And G is commutative, and End(G) also forms a natural commutative group, then why does $text{End}^2(G)$ suddenly not form a commutative and associative group, or to relax our constraints maximally, when and why do these endomorphism sequences stop creating semigroups?



Some notes: (in response to @Qiaochu’s answer)





I think our viewpoints are subtly different. If we take the endomorphisms of an object S we can identify each endomorphism with an element of S (often by seeing how the endomorphism moves a non identity element). Having built a map $m: S rightarrow text{End}(S)$ we can then define the binary operator $B: S times S rightarrow S$ by $B(a,b) = m(a)[b]$. It is the case that when S was the integers with Addition then B was commutative and associative (since B was multiplication). But when S is the rationals (without 0) with multiplication then B is exponentiation and exponentiation is neither commutative nor associative. Basically I’m trying to understand what properties does a group S need to have so that the B operation constructed as above is at the least associative










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The question is where your map $m:Sto operatorname{End}(S)$ comes from. Usually there isn't such a map, and I think the process by which you are going from addition to multiplication to exponentiation is a lot less systematic than you suggest.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I agree with Eric. This is not the right way to think about exponentiation.
    $endgroup$
    – Qiaochu Yuan
    7 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$


Consider a copy of $mathbb{Z}$



This forms a group when equipped with the "+" operator



Let us consider now $text{End}(mathbb{Z},+) $ the set of endomorphisms that preserve the additive structure, these endomorphisms are functions and have an associative structure that they "fit" into, namely



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +), times ) $$



Forms a set with an associative operator.



We can go further and look at the "closure" of



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +) - lbrace (x rightarrow 0*x) rbrace, times ) $$



By defining inverses for each of the endomorphisms and this set is equivalent to $mathbb{Q} - lbrace 0 rbrace $.



What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.



Exponentiation is neither associative nor commutative.



Why abstractly is this happening? For example if I have some group G and I look at



$$ G rightarrow text{End}(G) rightarrow text{End}^2 (G) rightarrow ...
$$



And G is commutative, and End(G) also forms a natural commutative group, then why does $text{End}^2(G)$ suddenly not form a commutative and associative group, or to relax our constraints maximally, when and why do these endomorphism sequences stop creating semigroups?



Some notes: (in response to @Qiaochu’s answer)





I think our viewpoints are subtly different. If we take the endomorphisms of an object S we can identify each endomorphism with an element of S (often by seeing how the endomorphism moves a non identity element). Having built a map $m: S rightarrow text{End}(S)$ we can then define the binary operator $B: S times S rightarrow S$ by $B(a,b) = m(a)[b]$. It is the case that when S was the integers with Addition then B was commutative and associative (since B was multiplication). But when S is the rationals (without 0) with multiplication then B is exponentiation and exponentiation is neither commutative nor associative. Basically I’m trying to understand what properties does a group S need to have so that the B operation constructed as above is at the least associative










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The question is where your map $m:Sto operatorname{End}(S)$ comes from. Usually there isn't such a map, and I think the process by which you are going from addition to multiplication to exponentiation is a lot less systematic than you suggest.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I agree with Eric. This is not the right way to think about exponentiation.
    $endgroup$
    – Qiaochu Yuan
    7 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$


Consider a copy of $mathbb{Z}$



This forms a group when equipped with the "+" operator



Let us consider now $text{End}(mathbb{Z},+) $ the set of endomorphisms that preserve the additive structure, these endomorphisms are functions and have an associative structure that they "fit" into, namely



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +), times ) $$



Forms a set with an associative operator.



We can go further and look at the "closure" of



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +) - lbrace (x rightarrow 0*x) rbrace, times ) $$



By defining inverses for each of the endomorphisms and this set is equivalent to $mathbb{Q} - lbrace 0 rbrace $.



What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.



Exponentiation is neither associative nor commutative.



Why abstractly is this happening? For example if I have some group G and I look at



$$ G rightarrow text{End}(G) rightarrow text{End}^2 (G) rightarrow ...
$$



And G is commutative, and End(G) also forms a natural commutative group, then why does $text{End}^2(G)$ suddenly not form a commutative and associative group, or to relax our constraints maximally, when and why do these endomorphism sequences stop creating semigroups?



Some notes: (in response to @Qiaochu’s answer)





I think our viewpoints are subtly different. If we take the endomorphisms of an object S we can identify each endomorphism with an element of S (often by seeing how the endomorphism moves a non identity element). Having built a map $m: S rightarrow text{End}(S)$ we can then define the binary operator $B: S times S rightarrow S$ by $B(a,b) = m(a)[b]$. It is the case that when S was the integers with Addition then B was commutative and associative (since B was multiplication). But when S is the rationals (without 0) with multiplication then B is exponentiation and exponentiation is neither commutative nor associative. Basically I’m trying to understand what properties does a group S need to have so that the B operation constructed as above is at the least associative










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Consider a copy of $mathbb{Z}$



This forms a group when equipped with the "+" operator



Let us consider now $text{End}(mathbb{Z},+) $ the set of endomorphisms that preserve the additive structure, these endomorphisms are functions and have an associative structure that they "fit" into, namely



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +), times ) $$



Forms a set with an associative operator.



We can go further and look at the "closure" of



$$ (text{End}(mathbb{Z}, +) - lbrace (x rightarrow 0*x) rbrace, times ) $$



By defining inverses for each of the endomorphisms and this set is equivalent to $mathbb{Q} - lbrace 0 rbrace $.



What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.



Exponentiation is neither associative nor commutative.



Why abstractly is this happening? For example if I have some group G and I look at



$$ G rightarrow text{End}(G) rightarrow text{End}^2 (G) rightarrow ...
$$



And G is commutative, and End(G) also forms a natural commutative group, then why does $text{End}^2(G)$ suddenly not form a commutative and associative group, or to relax our constraints maximally, when and why do these endomorphism sequences stop creating semigroups?



Some notes: (in response to @Qiaochu’s answer)





I think our viewpoints are subtly different. If we take the endomorphisms of an object S we can identify each endomorphism with an element of S (often by seeing how the endomorphism moves a non identity element). Having built a map $m: S rightarrow text{End}(S)$ we can then define the binary operator $B: S times S rightarrow S$ by $B(a,b) = m(a)[b]$. It is the case that when S was the integers with Addition then B was commutative and associative (since B was multiplication). But when S is the rationals (without 0) with multiplication then B is exponentiation and exponentiation is neither commutative nor associative. Basically I’m trying to understand what properties does a group S need to have so that the B operation constructed as above is at the least associative







abstract-algebra






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago







frogeyedpeas

















asked yesterday









frogeyedpeasfrogeyedpeas

7,56572053




7,56572053








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The question is where your map $m:Sto operatorname{End}(S)$ comes from. Usually there isn't such a map, and I think the process by which you are going from addition to multiplication to exponentiation is a lot less systematic than you suggest.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I agree with Eric. This is not the right way to think about exponentiation.
    $endgroup$
    – Qiaochu Yuan
    7 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The question is where your map $m:Sto operatorname{End}(S)$ comes from. Usually there isn't such a map, and I think the process by which you are going from addition to multiplication to exponentiation is a lot less systematic than you suggest.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I agree with Eric. This is not the right way to think about exponentiation.
    $endgroup$
    – Qiaochu Yuan
    7 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
The question is where your map $m:Sto operatorname{End}(S)$ comes from. Usually there isn't such a map, and I think the process by which you are going from addition to multiplication to exponentiation is a lot less systematic than you suggest.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
The question is where your map $m:Sto operatorname{End}(S)$ comes from. Usually there isn't such a map, and I think the process by which you are going from addition to multiplication to exponentiation is a lot less systematic than you suggest.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
10 hours ago












$begingroup$
I agree with Eric. This is not the right way to think about exponentiation.
$endgroup$
– Qiaochu Yuan
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
I agree with Eric. This is not the right way to think about exponentiation.
$endgroup$
– Qiaochu Yuan
7 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$


What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.




I don't know what construction you're describing here. The endomorphisms of $mathbb{Q}^{times}$, like the endomorphisms of any abelian group, form a ring (more or less a ring of infinite matrices). Unlike $mathbb{Z}$ this ring is noncommutative and has zero divisors, so it's not at all clear what it would mean to take fractions.



In general,




  • the endomorphisms of any object in any category whatsoever always form a monoid under composition,

  • for abelian groups we have the special property that $text{Ab}$ is canonically enriched over itself, so endomorphisms form a monoid internal to $text{Ab}$, which is to say a ring. Generally this ring will be noncommutative and have zero divisors.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
    $endgroup$
    – frogeyedpeas
    11 hours ago











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1 Answer
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active

oldest

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active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes









4












$begingroup$


What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.




I don't know what construction you're describing here. The endomorphisms of $mathbb{Q}^{times}$, like the endomorphisms of any abelian group, form a ring (more or less a ring of infinite matrices). Unlike $mathbb{Z}$ this ring is noncommutative and has zero divisors, so it's not at all clear what it would mean to take fractions.



In general,




  • the endomorphisms of any object in any category whatsoever always form a monoid under composition,

  • for abelian groups we have the special property that $text{Ab}$ is canonically enriched over itself, so endomorphisms form a monoid internal to $text{Ab}$, which is to say a ring. Generally this ring will be noncommutative and have zero divisors.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
    $endgroup$
    – frogeyedpeas
    11 hours ago
















4












$begingroup$


What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.




I don't know what construction you're describing here. The endomorphisms of $mathbb{Q}^{times}$, like the endomorphisms of any abelian group, form a ring (more or less a ring of infinite matrices). Unlike $mathbb{Z}$ this ring is noncommutative and has zero divisors, so it's not at all clear what it would mean to take fractions.



In general,




  • the endomorphisms of any object in any category whatsoever always form a monoid under composition,

  • for abelian groups we have the special property that $text{Ab}$ is canonically enriched over itself, so endomorphisms form a monoid internal to $text{Ab}$, which is to say a ring. Generally this ring will be noncommutative and have zero divisors.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
    $endgroup$
    – frogeyedpeas
    11 hours ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$


What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.




I don't know what construction you're describing here. The endomorphisms of $mathbb{Q}^{times}$, like the endomorphisms of any abelian group, form a ring (more or less a ring of infinite matrices). Unlike $mathbb{Z}$ this ring is noncommutative and has zero divisors, so it's not at all clear what it would mean to take fractions.



In general,




  • the endomorphisms of any object in any category whatsoever always form a monoid under composition,

  • for abelian groups we have the special property that $text{Ab}$ is canonically enriched over itself, so endomorphisms form a monoid internal to $text{Ab}$, which is to say a ring. Generally this ring will be noncommutative and have zero divisors.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




What is really weird to me, is if I repeat this algorithm, of taking a group, and looking at the endomorphisms of the group, and "completing" the endomorphism structure (and removing some elements) I don't end up with another group.




I don't know what construction you're describing here. The endomorphisms of $mathbb{Q}^{times}$, like the endomorphisms of any abelian group, form a ring (more or less a ring of infinite matrices). Unlike $mathbb{Z}$ this ring is noncommutative and has zero divisors, so it's not at all clear what it would mean to take fractions.



In general,




  • the endomorphisms of any object in any category whatsoever always form a monoid under composition,

  • for abelian groups we have the special property that $text{Ab}$ is canonically enriched over itself, so endomorphisms form a monoid internal to $text{Ab}$, which is to say a ring. Generally this ring will be noncommutative and have zero divisors.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Qiaochu YuanQiaochu Yuan

280k32592938




280k32592938












  • $begingroup$
    My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
    $endgroup$
    – frogeyedpeas
    11 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
    $endgroup$
    – frogeyedpeas
    11 hours ago
















$begingroup$
My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
$endgroup$
– frogeyedpeas
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
My comment is too long, I’ve made an addendum to the Question, please review and let me know your thoughts :)
$endgroup$
– frogeyedpeas
11 hours ago


















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