At what level can a dragon innately cast its spells?How do you determine spells a dragon can cast?What level...

Fly on a jet pack vs fly with a jet pack?

Varistor? Purpose and principle

Can I use my Chinese passport to enter China after I acquired another citizenship?

Does the Mind Blank spell prevent the target from being frightened?

Why does Async/Await work properly when the loop is inside the async function and not the other way around?

Is there a word to describe the feeling of being transfixed out of horror?

Is it possible to use .desktop files to open local pdf files on specific pages with a browser?

What is this type of notehead called?

Melting point of aspirin, contradicting sources

Journal losing indexing services

Why in book's example is used 言葉(ことば) instead of 言語(げんご)?

Is possible to search in vim history?

Reply 'no position' while the job posting is still there

Will adding a BY-SA image to a blog post make the entire post BY-SA?

A social experiment. What is the worst that can happen?

What (else) happened July 1st 1858 in London?

How do ground effect vehicles perform turns?

Can a significant change in incentives void an employment contract?

If a character with the Alert feat rolls a crit fail on their Perception check, are they surprised?

Is XSS in canonical link possible?

Simulating a probability of 1 of 2^N with less than N random bits

Is a model fitted to data or is data fitted to a model?

Are all species of CANNA edible?

In Star Trek IV, why did the Bounty go back to a time when whales were already rare?



At what level can a dragon innately cast its spells?


How do you determine spells a dragon can cast?What level do I cast invisibility from the eldritch invocation Shroud of Shadow?Now that my wizard is a dragon, can I do the following things?How much should NPCs charge for spells cast as services to PCs?Can Innate Spellcasters cast spells from scrolls?RAW, can innate spellcaster dragons cast spells with somatic components?Can I use the Boon of Spell Mastery as a warlock for a spell that I didn't learn as a warlock, but learned as a different class?Could a Huge or bigger creature (bigger than a 10-foot-radius sphere) use Antimagic Field?What spell list must dragons use, if any?Spellcasting services profit for a PC with healing spells on different caster levels













17












$begingroup$


In D&D 5e, when using the Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters, a spellcasting young red dragon is going to know 4 spells of up to 3rd level and can cast each spell once a day.



When the dragon casts, are the spells cast at 3rd level or at the lowest level for the spell?



Eg, does the dragon cast cure wounds at 3rd level, because it can?



Could the dragon cast invisibility on itself and its pet by casting it at 3rd level?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    17












    $begingroup$


    In D&D 5e, when using the Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters, a spellcasting young red dragon is going to know 4 spells of up to 3rd level and can cast each spell once a day.



    When the dragon casts, are the spells cast at 3rd level or at the lowest level for the spell?



    Eg, does the dragon cast cure wounds at 3rd level, because it can?



    Could the dragon cast invisibility on itself and its pet by casting it at 3rd level?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      17












      17








      17





      $begingroup$


      In D&D 5e, when using the Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters, a spellcasting young red dragon is going to know 4 spells of up to 3rd level and can cast each spell once a day.



      When the dragon casts, are the spells cast at 3rd level or at the lowest level for the spell?



      Eg, does the dragon cast cure wounds at 3rd level, because it can?



      Could the dragon cast invisibility on itself and its pet by casting it at 3rd level?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      In D&D 5e, when using the Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters, a spellcasting young red dragon is going to know 4 spells of up to 3rd level and can cast each spell once a day.



      When the dragon casts, are the spells cast at 3rd level or at the lowest level for the spell?



      Eg, does the dragon cast cure wounds at 3rd level, because it can?



      Could the dragon cast invisibility on itself and its pet by casting it at 3rd level?







      dnd-5e spells dragons






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Mar 14 at 18:56









      V2Blast

      25.5k486156




      25.5k486156










      asked Mar 14 at 12:32









      OverthinksOverthinks

      1,73831334




      1,73831334






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          39












          $begingroup$

          Dragons cannot upcast innate spells



          The MM says this on innate spellcasting (p.10):




          Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is
          always cast at its lowest possible level and can't be cast at a higher
          level.




          This is not circumvented by the rules for dragons (p.86)




          Each spell [..] the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s
          Challenge rating (rounded down)




          The latter is about what spells the dragon knows, not about the spells they cast.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            13












            $begingroup$

            Might be up-castable to third level (if the spell can be upcast)



            It is worth bearing in mind that the Monster Manual Variant Spellcasting for dragons is a DM option that lacks a great deal of specificity. The Monster Manual is a DM tool, strictly speaking, and the DM has considerable latitude in how to implement a dragon's spellcasting ability if it is chosen. A non-variant dragon does not have the Innate Spellcasting trait (thank you @Spitemaster)



            Dragons as Innate Spellcasters (MM)




            A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of Spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material Components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down).




            Charisma Modifier: +4. Challenge Rating: 10 (young red dragon, MM)



            This is a variant rule, so make a ruling (or propose one to your DM)



            At first blush, casting the spell at its lowest level isn't a restriction. Since both of those spells can be up-cast per their spell text, and the dragon can cast spells at third level based on CR/3, the dragon could cast them at up to third level. Does the DM want to treat the dragon like a Warlock? There isn't guidance on that one way or the other, so the DM can treat all of this dragon's spells as third level spells.



            But wait! Innate spell casting has a restriction



            Innate Spellcasting




            A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level.




            This text suggests that the invisibility spell would be cast at 2d level and could not be up cast.



            Is there a loophole? Maybe. You can argue that there's a 'noted otherwise' in the dragon's variant ability and thus innate spellcasting is not a hard restriction.




            the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down)




            The restriction is "no higher than." This can be looked at as specific over general (Basic Rules, p. 5) that opens an exception to the general rule since it only limits the dragon spell levels at the upper end. You can make the case (as Szega does) that this isn't specific enough to override the general innate spellcasting rule. (A fair ruling).



            Variant Dragons aren't described as having spell slots




            A monster can Cast a Spell from its list at a higher level if it has
            the spell slot to do so. For example, a Drow Mage with the 3rd-level
            Lightning Bolt spell can cast it as a 5th-level spell by using one of
            its 5th-level Spell Slots.




            That leaves open to DM ruling whether spell slots are even a thing for a dragon. If they are not, then dragons are only limited by their CR for the level at which their spells are cast. For example, are the spells cast as a warlock's spells are cast, all at the same level? That's up to the DM to decide.



            "The spell’s level can be no higher than ..."




            When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts Magic Missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that Magic Missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into. (Spell casting, Chapter 10)




            We begin to see how wide open this variant rule is. Most of the other spell casters (like the Archmage or the Cult Fanatic) have spell slots listed and depicted. The dragon doesn't. This all boils down to how the DM wants to treat the dragon's not having assigned spell slots. Is this a a restriction or not?




            1. If it is a restriction, go for the simple ruling.

            2. If not, go for the more nuanced ruling.


            Simple ruling: can't be up cast.



            Due to innate casting's general limitations, the simplest way to approach this is "the dragon casts spells at their lowest level." This is further supported by the lack of spell slots to assign to a given spell.



            More nuanced ruling: yes they can be upcast



            The specified restriction on spell level is based on the dragon's CR. The appeal to specific over general is that the text specific to the dragon only limits spells maximum level. A lower level spell cast at a higher level expands to fill the slot ... That's not strong argument, but it's a way to apply specific over general to a wide open variant rule.



            And this is a dragon. Who is to say that their spell level doesn't work like a warlock's? The DM.



            This is a variant rule, its application will need to be adjudicated by the DM.



            What ruling is more fun at your table? Discuss with your DM. It's a dragon - they named the game after these creatures.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
              $endgroup$
              – doppelgreener
              Mar 17 at 0:16











            Your Answer





            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
            StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
            StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
            });
            });
            }, "mathjax-editing");

            StackExchange.ready(function() {
            var channelOptions = {
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "122"
            };
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
            createEditor();
            });
            }
            else {
            createEditor();
            }
            });

            function createEditor() {
            StackExchange.prepareEditor({
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader: {
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            },
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            });


            }
            });














            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143126%2fat-what-level-can-a-dragon-innately-cast-its-spells%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            39












            $begingroup$

            Dragons cannot upcast innate spells



            The MM says this on innate spellcasting (p.10):




            Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is
            always cast at its lowest possible level and can't be cast at a higher
            level.




            This is not circumvented by the rules for dragons (p.86)




            Each spell [..] the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s
            Challenge rating (rounded down)




            The latter is about what spells the dragon knows, not about the spells they cast.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              39












              $begingroup$

              Dragons cannot upcast innate spells



              The MM says this on innate spellcasting (p.10):




              Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is
              always cast at its lowest possible level and can't be cast at a higher
              level.




              This is not circumvented by the rules for dragons (p.86)




              Each spell [..] the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s
              Challenge rating (rounded down)




              The latter is about what spells the dragon knows, not about the spells they cast.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                39












                39








                39





                $begingroup$

                Dragons cannot upcast innate spells



                The MM says this on innate spellcasting (p.10):




                Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is
                always cast at its lowest possible level and can't be cast at a higher
                level.




                This is not circumvented by the rules for dragons (p.86)




                Each spell [..] the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s
                Challenge rating (rounded down)




                The latter is about what spells the dragon knows, not about the spells they cast.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                Dragons cannot upcast innate spells



                The MM says this on innate spellcasting (p.10):




                Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is
                always cast at its lowest possible level and can't be cast at a higher
                level.




                This is not circumvented by the rules for dragons (p.86)




                Each spell [..] the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s
                Challenge rating (rounded down)




                The latter is about what spells the dragon knows, not about the spells they cast.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered Mar 14 at 12:49









                SzegaSzega

                39.8k4162199




                39.8k4162199

























                    13












                    $begingroup$

                    Might be up-castable to third level (if the spell can be upcast)



                    It is worth bearing in mind that the Monster Manual Variant Spellcasting for dragons is a DM option that lacks a great deal of specificity. The Monster Manual is a DM tool, strictly speaking, and the DM has considerable latitude in how to implement a dragon's spellcasting ability if it is chosen. A non-variant dragon does not have the Innate Spellcasting trait (thank you @Spitemaster)



                    Dragons as Innate Spellcasters (MM)




                    A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of Spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material Components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down).




                    Charisma Modifier: +4. Challenge Rating: 10 (young red dragon, MM)



                    This is a variant rule, so make a ruling (or propose one to your DM)



                    At first blush, casting the spell at its lowest level isn't a restriction. Since both of those spells can be up-cast per their spell text, and the dragon can cast spells at third level based on CR/3, the dragon could cast them at up to third level. Does the DM want to treat the dragon like a Warlock? There isn't guidance on that one way or the other, so the DM can treat all of this dragon's spells as third level spells.



                    But wait! Innate spell casting has a restriction



                    Innate Spellcasting




                    A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level.




                    This text suggests that the invisibility spell would be cast at 2d level and could not be up cast.



                    Is there a loophole? Maybe. You can argue that there's a 'noted otherwise' in the dragon's variant ability and thus innate spellcasting is not a hard restriction.




                    the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down)




                    The restriction is "no higher than." This can be looked at as specific over general (Basic Rules, p. 5) that opens an exception to the general rule since it only limits the dragon spell levels at the upper end. You can make the case (as Szega does) that this isn't specific enough to override the general innate spellcasting rule. (A fair ruling).



                    Variant Dragons aren't described as having spell slots




                    A monster can Cast a Spell from its list at a higher level if it has
                    the spell slot to do so. For example, a Drow Mage with the 3rd-level
                    Lightning Bolt spell can cast it as a 5th-level spell by using one of
                    its 5th-level Spell Slots.




                    That leaves open to DM ruling whether spell slots are even a thing for a dragon. If they are not, then dragons are only limited by their CR for the level at which their spells are cast. For example, are the spells cast as a warlock's spells are cast, all at the same level? That's up to the DM to decide.



                    "The spell’s level can be no higher than ..."




                    When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts Magic Missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that Magic Missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into. (Spell casting, Chapter 10)




                    We begin to see how wide open this variant rule is. Most of the other spell casters (like the Archmage or the Cult Fanatic) have spell slots listed and depicted. The dragon doesn't. This all boils down to how the DM wants to treat the dragon's not having assigned spell slots. Is this a a restriction or not?




                    1. If it is a restriction, go for the simple ruling.

                    2. If not, go for the more nuanced ruling.


                    Simple ruling: can't be up cast.



                    Due to innate casting's general limitations, the simplest way to approach this is "the dragon casts spells at their lowest level." This is further supported by the lack of spell slots to assign to a given spell.



                    More nuanced ruling: yes they can be upcast



                    The specified restriction on spell level is based on the dragon's CR. The appeal to specific over general is that the text specific to the dragon only limits spells maximum level. A lower level spell cast at a higher level expands to fill the slot ... That's not strong argument, but it's a way to apply specific over general to a wide open variant rule.



                    And this is a dragon. Who is to say that their spell level doesn't work like a warlock's? The DM.



                    This is a variant rule, its application will need to be adjudicated by the DM.



                    What ruling is more fun at your table? Discuss with your DM. It's a dragon - they named the game after these creatures.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
                      $endgroup$
                      – doppelgreener
                      Mar 17 at 0:16
















                    13












                    $begingroup$

                    Might be up-castable to third level (if the spell can be upcast)



                    It is worth bearing in mind that the Monster Manual Variant Spellcasting for dragons is a DM option that lacks a great deal of specificity. The Monster Manual is a DM tool, strictly speaking, and the DM has considerable latitude in how to implement a dragon's spellcasting ability if it is chosen. A non-variant dragon does not have the Innate Spellcasting trait (thank you @Spitemaster)



                    Dragons as Innate Spellcasters (MM)




                    A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of Spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material Components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down).




                    Charisma Modifier: +4. Challenge Rating: 10 (young red dragon, MM)



                    This is a variant rule, so make a ruling (or propose one to your DM)



                    At first blush, casting the spell at its lowest level isn't a restriction. Since both of those spells can be up-cast per their spell text, and the dragon can cast spells at third level based on CR/3, the dragon could cast them at up to third level. Does the DM want to treat the dragon like a Warlock? There isn't guidance on that one way or the other, so the DM can treat all of this dragon's spells as third level spells.



                    But wait! Innate spell casting has a restriction



                    Innate Spellcasting




                    A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level.




                    This text suggests that the invisibility spell would be cast at 2d level and could not be up cast.



                    Is there a loophole? Maybe. You can argue that there's a 'noted otherwise' in the dragon's variant ability and thus innate spellcasting is not a hard restriction.




                    the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down)




                    The restriction is "no higher than." This can be looked at as specific over general (Basic Rules, p. 5) that opens an exception to the general rule since it only limits the dragon spell levels at the upper end. You can make the case (as Szega does) that this isn't specific enough to override the general innate spellcasting rule. (A fair ruling).



                    Variant Dragons aren't described as having spell slots




                    A monster can Cast a Spell from its list at a higher level if it has
                    the spell slot to do so. For example, a Drow Mage with the 3rd-level
                    Lightning Bolt spell can cast it as a 5th-level spell by using one of
                    its 5th-level Spell Slots.




                    That leaves open to DM ruling whether spell slots are even a thing for a dragon. If they are not, then dragons are only limited by their CR for the level at which their spells are cast. For example, are the spells cast as a warlock's spells are cast, all at the same level? That's up to the DM to decide.



                    "The spell’s level can be no higher than ..."




                    When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts Magic Missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that Magic Missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into. (Spell casting, Chapter 10)




                    We begin to see how wide open this variant rule is. Most of the other spell casters (like the Archmage or the Cult Fanatic) have spell slots listed and depicted. The dragon doesn't. This all boils down to how the DM wants to treat the dragon's not having assigned spell slots. Is this a a restriction or not?




                    1. If it is a restriction, go for the simple ruling.

                    2. If not, go for the more nuanced ruling.


                    Simple ruling: can't be up cast.



                    Due to innate casting's general limitations, the simplest way to approach this is "the dragon casts spells at their lowest level." This is further supported by the lack of spell slots to assign to a given spell.



                    More nuanced ruling: yes they can be upcast



                    The specified restriction on spell level is based on the dragon's CR. The appeal to specific over general is that the text specific to the dragon only limits spells maximum level. A lower level spell cast at a higher level expands to fill the slot ... That's not strong argument, but it's a way to apply specific over general to a wide open variant rule.



                    And this is a dragon. Who is to say that their spell level doesn't work like a warlock's? The DM.



                    This is a variant rule, its application will need to be adjudicated by the DM.



                    What ruling is more fun at your table? Discuss with your DM. It's a dragon - they named the game after these creatures.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
                      $endgroup$
                      – doppelgreener
                      Mar 17 at 0:16














                    13












                    13








                    13





                    $begingroup$

                    Might be up-castable to third level (if the spell can be upcast)



                    It is worth bearing in mind that the Monster Manual Variant Spellcasting for dragons is a DM option that lacks a great deal of specificity. The Monster Manual is a DM tool, strictly speaking, and the DM has considerable latitude in how to implement a dragon's spellcasting ability if it is chosen. A non-variant dragon does not have the Innate Spellcasting trait (thank you @Spitemaster)



                    Dragons as Innate Spellcasters (MM)




                    A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of Spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material Components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down).




                    Charisma Modifier: +4. Challenge Rating: 10 (young red dragon, MM)



                    This is a variant rule, so make a ruling (or propose one to your DM)



                    At first blush, casting the spell at its lowest level isn't a restriction. Since both of those spells can be up-cast per their spell text, and the dragon can cast spells at third level based on CR/3, the dragon could cast them at up to third level. Does the DM want to treat the dragon like a Warlock? There isn't guidance on that one way or the other, so the DM can treat all of this dragon's spells as third level spells.



                    But wait! Innate spell casting has a restriction



                    Innate Spellcasting




                    A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level.




                    This text suggests that the invisibility spell would be cast at 2d level and could not be up cast.



                    Is there a loophole? Maybe. You can argue that there's a 'noted otherwise' in the dragon's variant ability and thus innate spellcasting is not a hard restriction.




                    the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down)




                    The restriction is "no higher than." This can be looked at as specific over general (Basic Rules, p. 5) that opens an exception to the general rule since it only limits the dragon spell levels at the upper end. You can make the case (as Szega does) that this isn't specific enough to override the general innate spellcasting rule. (A fair ruling).



                    Variant Dragons aren't described as having spell slots




                    A monster can Cast a Spell from its list at a higher level if it has
                    the spell slot to do so. For example, a Drow Mage with the 3rd-level
                    Lightning Bolt spell can cast it as a 5th-level spell by using one of
                    its 5th-level Spell Slots.




                    That leaves open to DM ruling whether spell slots are even a thing for a dragon. If they are not, then dragons are only limited by their CR for the level at which their spells are cast. For example, are the spells cast as a warlock's spells are cast, all at the same level? That's up to the DM to decide.



                    "The spell’s level can be no higher than ..."




                    When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts Magic Missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that Magic Missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into. (Spell casting, Chapter 10)




                    We begin to see how wide open this variant rule is. Most of the other spell casters (like the Archmage or the Cult Fanatic) have spell slots listed and depicted. The dragon doesn't. This all boils down to how the DM wants to treat the dragon's not having assigned spell slots. Is this a a restriction or not?




                    1. If it is a restriction, go for the simple ruling.

                    2. If not, go for the more nuanced ruling.


                    Simple ruling: can't be up cast.



                    Due to innate casting's general limitations, the simplest way to approach this is "the dragon casts spells at their lowest level." This is further supported by the lack of spell slots to assign to a given spell.



                    More nuanced ruling: yes they can be upcast



                    The specified restriction on spell level is based on the dragon's CR. The appeal to specific over general is that the text specific to the dragon only limits spells maximum level. A lower level spell cast at a higher level expands to fill the slot ... That's not strong argument, but it's a way to apply specific over general to a wide open variant rule.



                    And this is a dragon. Who is to say that their spell level doesn't work like a warlock's? The DM.



                    This is a variant rule, its application will need to be adjudicated by the DM.



                    What ruling is more fun at your table? Discuss with your DM. It's a dragon - they named the game after these creatures.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    Might be up-castable to third level (if the spell can be upcast)



                    It is worth bearing in mind that the Monster Manual Variant Spellcasting for dragons is a DM option that lacks a great deal of specificity. The Monster Manual is a DM tool, strictly speaking, and the DM has considerable latitude in how to implement a dragon's spellcasting ability if it is chosen. A non-variant dragon does not have the Innate Spellcasting trait (thank you @Spitemaster)



                    Dragons as Innate Spellcasters (MM)




                    A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of Spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material Components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down).




                    Charisma Modifier: +4. Challenge Rating: 10 (young red dragon, MM)



                    This is a variant rule, so make a ruling (or propose one to your DM)



                    At first blush, casting the spell at its lowest level isn't a restriction. Since both of those spells can be up-cast per their spell text, and the dragon can cast spells at third level based on CR/3, the dragon could cast them at up to third level. Does the DM want to treat the dragon like a Warlock? There isn't guidance on that one way or the other, so the DM can treat all of this dragon's spells as third level spells.



                    But wait! Innate spell casting has a restriction



                    Innate Spellcasting




                    A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level.




                    This text suggests that the invisibility spell would be cast at 2d level and could not be up cast.



                    Is there a loophole? Maybe. You can argue that there's a 'noted otherwise' in the dragon's variant ability and thus innate spellcasting is not a hard restriction.




                    the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s Challenge rating (rounded down)




                    The restriction is "no higher than." This can be looked at as specific over general (Basic Rules, p. 5) that opens an exception to the general rule since it only limits the dragon spell levels at the upper end. You can make the case (as Szega does) that this isn't specific enough to override the general innate spellcasting rule. (A fair ruling).



                    Variant Dragons aren't described as having spell slots




                    A monster can Cast a Spell from its list at a higher level if it has
                    the spell slot to do so. For example, a Drow Mage with the 3rd-level
                    Lightning Bolt spell can cast it as a 5th-level spell by using one of
                    its 5th-level Spell Slots.




                    That leaves open to DM ruling whether spell slots are even a thing for a dragon. If they are not, then dragons are only limited by their CR for the level at which their spells are cast. For example, are the spells cast as a warlock's spells are cast, all at the same level? That's up to the DM to decide.



                    "The spell’s level can be no higher than ..."




                    When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts Magic Missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that Magic Missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into. (Spell casting, Chapter 10)




                    We begin to see how wide open this variant rule is. Most of the other spell casters (like the Archmage or the Cult Fanatic) have spell slots listed and depicted. The dragon doesn't. This all boils down to how the DM wants to treat the dragon's not having assigned spell slots. Is this a a restriction or not?




                    1. If it is a restriction, go for the simple ruling.

                    2. If not, go for the more nuanced ruling.


                    Simple ruling: can't be up cast.



                    Due to innate casting's general limitations, the simplest way to approach this is "the dragon casts spells at their lowest level." This is further supported by the lack of spell slots to assign to a given spell.



                    More nuanced ruling: yes they can be upcast



                    The specified restriction on spell level is based on the dragon's CR. The appeal to specific over general is that the text specific to the dragon only limits spells maximum level. A lower level spell cast at a higher level expands to fill the slot ... That's not strong argument, but it's a way to apply specific over general to a wide open variant rule.



                    And this is a dragon. Who is to say that their spell level doesn't work like a warlock's? The DM.



                    This is a variant rule, its application will need to be adjudicated by the DM.



                    What ruling is more fun at your table? Discuss with your DM. It's a dragon - they named the game after these creatures.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited Mar 14 at 14:53

























                    answered Mar 14 at 12:42









                    KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast

                    82.4k19257444




                    82.4k19257444












                    • $begingroup$
                      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
                      $endgroup$
                      – doppelgreener
                      Mar 17 at 0:16


















                    • $begingroup$
                      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
                      $endgroup$
                      – doppelgreener
                      Mar 17 at 0:16
















                    $begingroup$
                    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
                    $endgroup$
                    – doppelgreener
                    Mar 17 at 0:16




                    $begingroup$
                    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
                    $endgroup$
                    – doppelgreener
                    Mar 17 at 0:16


















                    draft saved

                    draft discarded




















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid



                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function () {
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143126%2fat-what-level-can-a-dragon-innately-cast-its-spells%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                    }
                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    Nidaros erkebispedøme

                    Birsay

                    Was Woodrow Wilson really a Liberal?Was World War I a war of liberals against authoritarians?Founding Fathers...